Midnight Voices                      
The discussion forum for fans of Pete Atkin and Clive James,
their works and collaborators on stage, TV, disc and in print.

Web Digest week 19 (04.01.98, MV573 - 586) begins | index | prev | next |
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From: IChippett <email address>
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 03:20:39 EST
To: midnight.voices<email address>
Subject: MV573: Tritones and sales figures

Gerry Smith and Dave Jones explained far better than I can the nature of a
tritone. The interesting thing from the Midnight Voices point of view is that
practically no other "rock" or "f--k" musician seems to use this interval so
obsessively. There's one in "Warmth of the Sun" by the Beach Boys  which goes
C-Am-E flat-Cm but I can't think of any others offhand. What about the rest of
you? 

In classical music, the use of this interval became increasingly important at
about the beginning of the century which coincided with the beginning of the
decline of public interest in contemporary classical music. Joe Public just
can't handle this sort of thing, hence Pete's relative lack of recognition
IMHO. By way of comparison, you won't hear one in "Candle in the Wind" and I
have been reliably informed that the Spice Girls' contracts contain a clause
forbidding its use at any time.

Thanks, Steve, for your message about Pete's sales figures. I would have
thought that LL would have been near the top of the list as it would seem to
appeal to that segment of the public who are fond of a laugh (see below) and
is the least musically sophisticated  of his works.
 
On the subject of laughs, I dug out a dog-eared copy of the NME Book of Rock
Vol. 2 from 1977 which has an article on PA, dismissing his work as "clever
but dull", stating that "the humour is just too cerebral and contrived to be
actually funny." Clever, I agree, dull, well that's a matter of opinion but
why do they, like so many others, think PA was some kind of stand-up comedian?
I've never found myself clutching my sides after listening to DTMA or AKAN.
The only "funny" songs are "Wristwatch" and "Little Sammy Speedball":
"Beautiful Stranger" is "funny" only in the same way that, say, Kingsley
Amis's novels are funny. 

Has PA ever sold an album in France? I came over in 1978 but have never seen
any of his albums in the stores here. Maybe his public here is just as
fanatical as we are and snap up his albums as soon as they appear.  

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Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 10:22:36 PST
From: "Jones,David L" <email address>
Subject: MV574 RE: MV573: Tritones and NME
To: Midnight Voices <email address>

On the New Musical Express notes on Pete, circa 1977:
You have to remember that the NME was, at the time, and for all I know still
is, setting itself up as the antithesis to the stodgy, overweight Melody
Maker. By the mid-70s even the MM was questioning the mega-ego style
of rock stardom, and NME decided to run with the New Wave/Punk trends.
Hardly surprising then that they would be underwhelmed by Pete & Clive's
style.

Regarding tritones, the real point, which I missed in my reply, is that the
chord sequence in question has two consecutive chords (F and B7) that bear 
almost no relation to each other, except for the note A which is in an 
 uncomfortable
place in the second chord.  The song as a whole just wanders between chords
separated by whole-tones, making it feel like dominant/sub-dominant in one key,
then another, then another, without ever getting to a tonic, and then making 
this tritone leap to emphasize the mood switch between the first two lines  
of each verse and the third line.  There's also a hint to the listener that the 
real transition is from F to E (B7 being the dominant of E, and the next chord 
related to A, the sub-dominant of E). The result  may be to suggest a semitone 
lowering of the key, which does have some precedents in popular music as a 
mood-shift device.  But it doesn't last, of course.  

Note that in the 'bridge' Pete goes to a different whole tone scheme, with the 
start of each line going down (A/G/F) and the middle going up (Db/Eb/F) to meet 
in the middle. Did he really think of the music like this, or did it just sound 
right at the time?

Dave Jones
Awaiting the second coming of Santa (the Monyash CDs) in Rochester NY.

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Date: Tue, 06 Jan 1998 02:21:31 +0000
To: midnight.voices<email address>
From: Gerald Smith <email address>
Subject: MV575 Re.MV573 - tritones/Lady of a Day

Hello All

	Tritones for breakfast, lunch and now for a (late) supper..!  Dave Jones
hit the nail on the head in saying that Lady of a Day 'wanders between
chords...without ever getting to a tonic'.  This is precisely the nature of
the whole tone scale: scale degree function, ie the usual
tonic/dominant/secondary dominant sequence of sounds that our Western minds
are 'programmed' to understand and rationalize, does not operate within the
domain of the whole tone scale.  About the closest you can get to a sense
of modulation is the tritone shift (f-b7 in this particular song), which,
as Dave says, accompanies the change of mood. 
	The implied lowering of key (F-E) at that same point is interesting.  The
'lowering' effect comes with the lines 'it's only right that everything
went wrong' and ' it couldn't happen to a nicer guy', thus reflecting the
mood of the 'writer'. The 'home' chord, F, is restored very soon afterwards
(in Verse 1) on 'it couldn't happen any other way' perhaps suggesting
inevitability ( I rather feel that the writer feels that the relationship
would have inevitably failed). 

I must say I'd never noticed the rather perfect symmetry of the chords in
the bridge section.  Pete has already said that he was deliberately trying
to work within  a whole tone framework with this song, so I guess this
symmetry is perhaps a way of instilling some structural discipline in what
can be a rather nebulous medium (the whole tone scale).  It works extremely
well, and, when all's said and done, probably did just 'sound right at the
time'.  Don't forget, it's a whole different ball game to write a three
minute popular song using an unconventional method such as this, than it is
to write lengthy orchestral and solo instrumental pieces, which is where
you'd more often expect to find this style of composition, in the works of
composers such as Debussy.

God, where are the aspirins?


Gerry Smith

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Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 11:04:29 GMT
From: <email address> (Dr Jeremy Walton. Tel: <phone number>)
To: midnight.voices<email address>
Subject: MV576 Re: MV551; MV540 etc; CDs

Belated thanks as well to Steve for the live CDs, which have been high
on the in-house playlist since opening the package on Christmas morning.

I'm particularly struck by the authoritative reading that Pete gives to
the previously unreleased "History and Geography", "Search and Destroy"
and  "Canoe".  These songs have as their trademark the almost casual way
in which the lyric's initial flight of fancy is weaved into a plausible
tale; this is a rare gift shared by only a few of the finest songs from
the greatest songwriters (e.g. Paul Simon's "Hearts and Bones", Elvis
Costello's "New Lace Sleeves", Dylan's "Lily, Rosemary and the Jack of
Hearts"...).  Coupled with a strong melody (particularly in "History and 
Geography"), their appeal is, I think, timeless; their appearance on
this  collection is an unexpected treat which makes one wish for further
exposure to those other unreleased songs.

Also, just before Christmas, I picked up a copy of the See for Miles CD
(in Banbury's excellent Record Savings store), in spite of having both
LPs on vinyl already (I've just been reading a passage in Giles Smith's
"Lost in Music" about the solemn vow that we all made when buying a CD
player that we would never, ever buy any CD that we already had on vinyl
- and how quickly that's forgotten).  It sounds great, and I was struck
(again) at the excellence of "Prince of Acquitaine", and the accuracy of
its lyrics.  Someone mentioned earlier the sachet of sugar on the plane
that you toy with, slip unthinking into your pocket and rediscover
later on as a keepsake from the flight.  Listening to the song again, I
recalled the way in which the excitement of taking a flight heightens
your senses so that ordinary things (shops, clothes, newspapers) are
coated with a patina of newness when seen in the airport terminal.  This 
experience is related in the song's maxi-coats (anachronism
alert!) that look rich with the disinterested comment "It'd take a
better eye than mine to even fault a stitch" - you're not normally
conscious of passing judgement on other people's clothes but, in the
state of hyper-sensitivity that comes with excitement (and nerves),
these things suddenly jump out at you.

Cheers,

Jeremy

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From: Elphinking <email address>
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 13:18:26 EST
To: midnight.voices<email address>
Subject: MV577 Re: MV573: Tritones and sales figures

In a message dated 05/01/98  10:29:52, you write:

<< "Beautiful Stranger" is "funny" only in the same way that, say, Kingsley
 Amis's novels are funny. 
 
 Did you never read Lucky Jim and roar out loud while alone? Weird.

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Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 18:19:58 +0000 (GMT)
From: Nick Tothill <email address>
To: Midnight Voices <email address>
Subject: MV578 Re: MV406 (New Welcome Message)

On Mon, 5 Jan 1998, Midnight Voices wrote:

> If you're new to the group, you're hereby invited to introduce yourself!

Errm...<taps microphone> Here goes...

I'm actually a second generation PA fan. My parents lived in Cambridge in
the late 60's, and saw him at Footlights. They then bought a couple of the
albums (BOTBS and DTMA). Being born in 1971, I missed it all first time
round, but discovered the songs off my parents' record collection - by
which time everything had long been deleted, of course. So the 1990
compilation was a godsend. As for the rest, I have copies of BOTBS and
DTMA off my parents' vinyl, and I found a 2nd-hand copy of Secret Drinker
in Cambridge going for a fiver! So now I just have to find Road of Silk
and King at Nightfall... 

PS: Hello to whoever recommended the record shop in Banbury. I'm in 
London, but my parents live just south of Banbury, in a village called 
Deddington.

Nick Tothill.

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Nick Tothill                       Research Student, Astrophysics Group,
                                   Physics Department,
<phone number>                     Queen Mary & Westfield College,
<email address>                    University of London, U.K.
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"...this fictional account of the day-by-day life of an English gamekeeper is 
still of considerable interest to outdoor-minded readers, as it contains many 
passages on pheasant raising...and other chores and duties of the professional 
gamekeeper. Unfortunately, one is obliged to wade through many pages of 
extraneous material in order to discover and savour these sidelights on the 
management of a Midland shooting estate, and in this reviewer's opinion the 
book cannot take the place of J.R. Miller's 'Practical Gamekeeper'."
                 - Review of 'Lady Chatterley's Lover' in 'Field and Stream'

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Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 10:18:52 -0500 (EST)
From: "Jones,David L" <email address>
Subject: MV579 RE: MV573: Tritones and sales figures
To: Midnight Voices <email address>

>From: IChippett <email address>
>why do they, like so many others, think PA was some kind of stand-up comedian?

Well, now I come to think of it, part of the 'cult' of Pete arises because he
was (sorry, is) such a sympathetic (is that the right word ?) live performer.
He knows when to stretch out the moment, arch an eyebrow, or adjust the tone
of his voice for emotional effect. The first two require an audience, and
when touring solo Pete was always good at getting 'en rapport' (to the point
where we felt like handcuffing him to the piano so he'd stick around...).
Not only did Pete present the obvious humor in "Wristwatch" et al, but
the right inflexion and body language would elicit a chuckle over the
deliberately lame lyrics in songs like "Biro".  And when it came to the
dark irony in "Sessionman's Blues" and "Thirty Year Man" - well, words
fail me.

So in a sense Pete really is a 'stand-up' (and sit-down) comedian,
especially if we go back to older, broader definitions of 'comedy'.
In person he got to you very quickly, but the recordings lacked that
immediacy, which may explain the problems reaching the vinyl-buying
public.  Its a pity that by the 70s 'gigging' was just a way of promoting
albums instead of a living by itself.  In a better world Pete might have
set up in a fixed location, somewhere around the corner from Mayfair,
say, and had the world come to him.  Anybody remember Max Wall's
return from limbo?  Maybe it's time for 'Aspects of Pete Atkin', coming
to the Roundhouse soon....

Dave Jones

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Date: Fri, 09 Jan 1998 00:12:22 +0000
To: Midnight Voices <email address>
From: Hamilton Pruim <email address>
Subject: MV580: Which other passports?

As a newcomer, I'd like to say hello to everyone, but that would take too
long. It's just nice to know I'm not the only one.

This subject may have been covered previously, but I don't know the answer.
When Clive James' "Other Passports" was published I rushed out joyously,
thinking "Hey! here come all the ones that didn't quite make it to lyrics".
After all, it promised "Poems 1958-1985". 

Well, I'm going to walk out on a plank and start sawing. The - poems? - are
almost without exception..........not very good. With one or two notable
exceptions, there is no trace of the brilliance of the PA lyrics. Even the
"Letter to PA" is awkward with none of the spare elegance that the lyrics
have.

So. Were the lyrics really written by Bacon? Why were none in the book?
Were are the really good 'uns? I think we should be told.

Hamilton

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Date: Fri, 09 Jan 1998 00:13:23 +0000
To: Midnight Voices <email address>
From: Hamilton Pruim <email address>
Subject: MV581: Other singers

Two messages in one night? Can I stand the pace?

Many years ago, I came across a singer songwriter called Pete Scott, from
Newcastle. While not the same, he was very likely to appeal to anyone who
is a PA fan, because of his talent with lyrics and his ability to craft
songs on subject not exclusively devoted to how his horse died.

As far as I know, he only ever made one album (which wasn't very good) and
a demo tape (which was excellent). This tape contained stuff like his song
about being a stagehand at one particular show on the life of Edith
Piaf..."I'm the shadow of a shadow show/you don't know I'm there/ I've done
it right / You've come to see Miss Laportaire tonight", an affectionate
look at the northern English country artists "He fixes TV's in the
daytime/but at night he treads the boards/He knows ten thousand cowboy
tunes/But he only needs three chords"

Does anyone know what happened to him? Does anyone else remember him?

Hamilton

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Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 09:58:21 GMT
From: <email address> (Dr Jeremy Walton. Tel: <phone number>)
To: midnight.voices<email address>
Subject: MV582 Re: MV580: Which other passports?

>> As a newcomer, I'd like to say hello to everyone, but that would take too
>> long. It's just nice to know I'm not the only one.

Hi Hamilton - welcome aboard,

>> This subject may have been covered previously, but I don't know the answer.
>> When Clive James' "Other Passports" was published I rushed out joyously,
>> thinking "Hey! here come all the ones that didn't quite make it to lyrics".
>> After all, it promised "Poems 1958-1985". 
>> 
>> Well, I'm going to walk out on a plank and start sawing. The - poems? - are
>> almost without exception..........not very good. With one or two notable
>> exceptions, there is no trace of the brilliance of the PA lyrics. Even the
>> "Letter to PA" is awkward with none of the spare elegance that the lyrics
>> have.

Hmm - contentious already, eh?  I don't know - I like some of them
(which I guess is all that any of us can say).  Especially "Reflections
on a cardboard box", which provides another example of the extension of
a flight of fancy that I was ranting about a few days ago (see "History
and Geography").  I'm not too fond of the verse letters, mainly because
I can't imagine anyone being able to sit down and write a letter which
turns out so elegantly crafted.  And I think his epic verse (not
represented in the collection) creaks a lot.  But the shorter stuff
(which comes in at about song-length) contains many jewels.

Actually, this reminds me of another problem I've had with CJ's lyrics -
they often look more like poems, which over-constricts PA in his
construction of a song.  How many of his songs have an AAAAA...
structure?  How many have the more familiar ABABCAB?  Okay, it's nice to
get away from traditional structures, but there are good reasons why
they've proved so enduring.  Take BOTB as an extreme example - is that a
poem or a song?

Cheers,

Jeremy

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Date: Fri, 09 Jan 1998 15:40:30 +0000
To: Midnight Voices <email address>
From: Hamilton Pruim <email address>
Subject: MV583 Re: MV582 Which other passports?

>
>Hmm - contentious already, eh?  I don't know - I like some of them
>(which I guess is all that any of us can say).  Especially "Reflections
>on a cardboard box", which provides another example of the extension of
>a flight of fancy that I was ranting about a few days ago (see "History
>and Geography").  I'm not too fond of the verse letters, mainly because
>I can't imagine anyone being able to sit down and write a letter which
>turns out so elegantly crafted.  And I think his epic verse (not
>represented in the collection) creaks a lot.  But the shorter stuff
>(which comes in at about song-length) contains many jewels.
>
>Actually, this reminds me of another problem I've had with CJ's lyrics -
>they often look more like poems, which over-constricts PA in his
>construction of a song.  How many of his songs have an AAAAA...
>structure?  How many have the more familiar ABABCAB?  Okay, it's nice to
>get away from traditional structures, but there are good reasons why
>they've proved so enduring.  Take BOTB as an extreme example - is that a
>poem or a song?

Contentious ? Moi ? 

I did say there were one or two which were OK, but if I understood you
correctly you seem to be reinforcing my point.

The lyrics, for the most part, are complete, coherent, rounded works. While
the poems do have flashes of brilliance, these are unsustained. They makes
you feel that the phrase(s) came first and the rest of the poem crafted
round it. For me, a large part of my interest in the lyrics comes from the
excellence of writing that paints images and makes you think - as with any
good writing. Once again for me, the poetry just makes me think what a
clever chap CJ thinks he is.....

Regards,

Hamilton


Hamilton Pruim
Effective Software Ltd
Tel: <phone number>
Fax: <fax number>
<email address>

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Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 13:28:23 +0000
To: Midnight Voices <email address>
From: S J Birkill <email address>
Subject: MV584: New chord transcriptions

A belated thankyou to Ians Chippett and Sorensen, and to Gerry Smith, for
their transcriptions sent during December. I've finally got around to
incorporating Pete's amendments and uploading the results:

http://www.rwt.co.uk/a3c.htm  -- Biro
http://www.rwt.co.uk/c3c.htm  -- All the Dead
http://www.rwt.co.uk/c5c.htm  -- King at Nightfall
http://www.rwt.co.uk/c9c.htm  -- Screen-freak

Briefly, Pete preferred Ian S's Dead to Ian C's version (Nice Try, though)
-- his changes were mainly in adding 9ths to several chords. King gained a
few 9ths too, and the Db7 he (Pete) concedes might be a bit perverse -- E
would be OK. Gerry's Screen-freak picked up a bunch of changes (9ths, 11ths
and 13ths included!), but his Biro just slipped up in one line of the
refrain. Pete confirms Gerry's intuition re capo 2 for this one, so I've
written it out as in C.

Good to have these songs included! -- Steve

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Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 21:13:02 +0000
To: midnight.voices<email address>
From: Gerald Smith <email address>
Subject: MV585: The Road of Silk

Hello Folks (or should I say F**ks?)

	Would anyone like to share their thoughts on The Road of Silk ? (The song,
I mean, not the album). For some reason I have always equated the 'subject'
with a dying GI in Vietnam although I am not entirely certain why. Of
course, I could be completely wrong.

Hasn't Pete got any more gigs lined up? Surely we voices (as Steve
suggested we should some time ago) can think of a suitable venue between
us. The Water Rats, a large and well-known pub in Gray's Inn Road, about 5
minutes' walk form Kings Cross Station houses a small theatre. I'm sure the
atmosphere there would be just right for a gig, and the location is
convenient for train/tube bus. Any other suggestions?

Gerry Smith

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Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 12:46:09 +0100
From: Tim's account <email address>
To: Atkin Mail List <email address>, 
Subject: MV586: Change of email address

Dear All
With immediate effect I am switching my email address from
<email address> to
                       <email address>

This meail is being sent from my new mail address.

Cheers

Tim Binsted

[Tim's intro to the group can be found in MV4 -- SJB]

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Web Digest week 19 (04.01.98, MV573 - 586) ends   | index | prev | next |

The discussion forum for fans of Pete Atkin and Clive James,
their works and collaborators on stage, TV, disc and in print.
Midnight Voices