Midnight Voices 
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Date: Sat, 01 Nov 1997 20:28:03 +0100
From: David Griffin <email address>
Subject: MV334 Re: MV316; MV310: quick trip to the bank
Midnight Voices wrote:
> Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 06:53:45 +0000
> To: Midnight Voices <email address>
> From: Leslie Moss <email address>
> Subject: Re: MV310: quick trip to the bank
>
> > Another line I've struggled with is "The
> >beginner's call and the very last call of all." Any ideas?
>
And I'd always heard it as "The beginner's chord and the very last chord
of all." and thought it was an advanced pun about chords (The beginner's
chord being the easy one and the very last chord of all being the most
difficult one). I've obviously been influenced by Moody Blues "In Search
of theLOST chord", but then again I'm a master at mishearing.
David
==============================================================================
Date: Sat, 01 Nov 1997 20:42:45 -0800
From: M Powell <email address>
Subject: MV335 Re: MV333: Winchester 29/10;MV330
>
> I hope we've all take Steve Birkill's message to heart (MV303). It would
> seem that Pete does not currently have any gigs scheduled and it would be
> unforgivable if he were allowed to fade away again.
On the other hand we don't want him to burn himself out on a lot of
possibly smallish shows like Winchester (40 in the audience?). Surely
the emphasis at the moment must be to get the CD rereleases working
properly and get the proper press coverage so there is a much expanded
audience for live shows a little later. This would then allow time for
Pete to work himself into the material a bit more (mentioned in MV328)
and move around the country a bit. Much as we would like to see Pete
again we can't turn up every few weeks, especially when the shows are
tending to be in the south. If our idea of doing market research on the
Voices ever takes off, the geographical distribution will be
interesting. (For example we are in Yorkshire and our 5 friends who
came to Monyash with us are in Scotland - ruling out Winchester
altogether.)
>
> Whilst writing, I'd like to thank Mike powell for his excellent elucidation
> of the lyrics to 'No Dice' and the 'Marketing PA' ideas contained in MV 313.
Thank you very much for this - in fact m.powell <email address> masks both
Mel Powell (who wrote No Dice for Clive when he was having a bad day,
pace cboag <email address>) and Mike Powell. Aren't these SMTP addresses
beguiling? Perhaps Pete and Clive could write a new song based on all
our mailings called something like 'Voices@pseud.com'. Setting a morass
of mail headers and trailers to music and making it all scan should be a
test to bring even the elusive Mr James out of the shadows. I have
advised Mel to sign all her efforts in future.
Seriously though, surely if this group is to have one lasting purpose it
will be to elucidate sensible and complete interpretations of the
songs. If this means the occasional lengthy assertion like the No Dice
exegesis then at least we have a starting point for others to disagree -
who knows, it might even be right! One thing we are both agreed upon is
that no song loses its strength by being fully understood, although we
do appreciate the viewpoint that a song 'means' different things to
different people.
Mel & Mike Powell
<email address>
==============================================================================
Date: Sat, 01 Nov 1997 21:13:25 -0800
From: M Powell <email address>
Subject: MV336 Re: MV329: Uncle Seabird
> Can anyone help me with some questions about the lyrics of Uncle Seabird -
> various versions. I can get most of the references but a couple have
> stumped me.
>
> First, who was Luria Cantrell ("When Fillmore West was still a carousel And
> the chick to know was Luria Cantrell ")
Sorry, we're equally stumped!
>
> Second, why does "Zimmerman" change his name to "Weberman" and not Dylan? I
> have the feeling I'm missing something subtle here!
Here's a guess - I think the word is actually 'Weatherman', in reference
to Subterranean Homesick Blues. ("You don't need a Weatherman to know
which way the wind blows": the Weathermen were a contemporary anarchist
group.) The implied joke might be that Bob Dylan originally meant the
line to include his own original surname - "You don't need a Zimmerman
to know which way the wind blows", which would certainly have scanned.
(Mel)
>
> I'm also wondering who CJ based Uncle Seabird on if anyone? He seems to me
> like a mixture of Bill Graham and Timothy Leary.
On the back of the Live Libel album, it's credited "in memoriam Ralph J.
Gleason". Gleason was a highly respected music journalist.
Mike & Mel Powell
==============================================================================
Date: Sat, 01 Nov 1997 20:00:59 GMT
From: email address (Michael J. Cross)
Subject: MV337: Q December '97
Hi All,
Stuart Maconie in the Surf's Up section in the Dec '97 issue of "Q":
Obsession
One of the Internet's great strengths is that while major acts are
sometimes poorly served, the very obscure are often feted with
loving and detailed fan sites that are a joy to behold. Take "Smash
Flops: The Pete Atkin Homepage" at http://www.rwt.co.uk/pa.htm.
Atkin, in the words of this fantastic site, passed "from cult
to legend, bypassing fame and fortune on the way". In the
late-60's and early-70's he made seven albums in collaboration
with Clive James (yes, the Clive James) and treasurable items
they are too, sadly all out of print but still at the centre of
a sizable cult. The array of desirable stuff that's amassed at
this site is simply breathtaking: rare pictures, interview
snippets, clips of every album, and best of all, James' excellent
lyrics, such as the rock satire Black Funk Rex. James himself still
contends that these albums are amongst the best work has ever done,
and this loving endeavour certainly does it justice.
Maybe we can hope for a positive review of the CD in "Q" after all?
all the best,
--
Michael J. Cross BSFA Magazine Index at http://www.mjckeh.demon.co.uk
"Beware of the Beautiful Stranger/Driving Through Mythical America"
by Pete Atkin & Clive James, CD reissue 10/97 on See For Miles
For more info on all PA/CJ releases, see http://www.rwt.co.uk/pa.htm
==============================================================================
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 15:39:01 -0500 (EST)
From: Rob King <email address>
Subject: MV338: Nat or Natash?
Is it really 'the way Nat Lofthouse liked the ball' in The Man Who Walked
Towards the Music? I have always heard it as 'Natasha' and assumed it was
some Chekovian reference...I much prefer the Lion of Vienna analogy though.
==============================================================================
From: "Maurice J. Lovelock" <email address>
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 16:28:21 -5
Subject: MV339 Re: MV329: Uncle Seabird
Surely there's got to be some of Colonel Tom Parker
in Uncle Seabird, dontcha think ???? M.
==============================================================================
Date: Sun, 02 Nov 1997 14:45:46 +0000
From: Leslie Moss <email address>
Subject: MV340 Re: MV338: Nat or Natash?
At 21:24 01/11/97 +0000, you wrote:
>Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 15:39:01 -0500 (EST)
>From: Rob King
>To: email address
>Subject: Nat or Natash?
>
>Is it really 'the way Nat Lofthouse liked the ball' in The Man Who Walked
>Towards the Music? I have always heard it as 'Natasha' and assumed it was
>some Chekovian reference...I much prefer the Lion of Vienna analogy though.
>
Surely it's Natasha from Tolstoy's War and Peace who's being referred to?
But I *love* the idea of mishearing it as Nat Lofthouse!
Leslie
==============================================================================
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 14:28:21 -0500 (EST)
From: IChippett <email address>
Subject: MV341: Uncle Seabird, currency conversion etc
Wasn't the above song supposed to be about Ralph Gleason, the late critic? He
wrote for "Rolling Stone" and is mentioned on the cover of the album.
Gerald Smith very kindly sent me a clip of "How like you this?" Can anybody
tell me what the first line of this pretty little song is since it's missing
at least on my version?
Thanks, Steve, for your explanation of "Faded Mansion" and the reference to a
pharoah in "Tonight your love is over". I don't suppose we'll ever know the
whole truth about the former but I still don't understand why anyone would
want to put aside a pharoah against a rainy day. And what are " the clouded
ruins of a god" while we're at it?
I don't want to discourage Pete but what will happen when we adopt the Euro?
e.g. "Here's a wallet for you and ..... Euro for me"
"... who coughed up ..... Euro in the dark caravan"
" A kid once asked me in late September for a ??? for the
Guy"
"...and I tossed a ??? with deep respect......"
And the same goes for his recent updating of "Girl on a Train" since
".....Euro from the cash distributor and I got out of town with relief" just
doesn't sound right. Always assuming we still have trains if and when Britain
adopts the Euro. Or girls.
==============================================================================
Date: Sun, 02 Nov 1997 23:15:26 +0000
From: S J Birkill <email address>
Subject: MV342 Re: MV341: Uncle Seabird, currency conversion etc
'I might have guessed your kiss would change my eyes', see
http://www.rwt.co.uk/i12.htm
Steve
==============================================================================
From: Mark Roberts <email address>
Subject: MV343 RE: MV336; MV329: Uncle Seabird
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 11:42:04 -0000
----------
> Second, why does "Zimmerman" change his name to "Weberman" and not Dylan? I
> have the feeling I'm missing something subtle here!
Here's a guess - I think the word is actually 'Weatherman', in reference
to Subterranean Homesick Blues. ("You don't need a Weatherman to know
which way the wind blows": the Weathermen were a contemporary anarchist
group.)
I thought the Wethermen were the backing group that played with Dylan
but I could be wrong.
Cheers,
Mark Roberts
==============================================================================
From: Mark Roberts <email address>
Subject: MV344 RE: MV340; MV338: Nat or Natash?
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 11:45:31 -0000
----------
Surely it's Natasha from Tolstoy's War and Peace who's being referred to?
But I *love* the idea of mishearing it as Nat Lofthouse!
Correct. I overheard somebody asking Pete that question at Winchester.
I thought it might be Natasha Kinski !
Mark Roberts.
==============================================================================
From: PayneS <email address>
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 14:20:20 +0000
Subject: MV345: Balls (and those that like them)
Probably too defensive a note, but....
Surely noone could think I'd actually misheard Natasha as Nat
Lofthouse?
My attempts at humour are just too feeble for sensitivities honed on all
those CJ lyrics.
I'd always assumed the Tolstoy reference, but not with any great
confidence.
SJP
==============================================================================
From: B & J Cotterill <email address>
Subject: MV346 Re: MV303 new gigs
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 19:07:45 -0000
Hello Steve - in answer to your challenge:
There is a 17th century barn in Walton on Thames which has been restored and
converted into a community arts centre. An ideal venue - The Albion Band and
Show of Hands have both performed there. Good acoustics, flexible space, and
all facilities including a bar.
Contact me if you want to know more.
Regards
Jenny Cotterill
==============================================================================
Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 23:44:44 -0800
From: m.powell <email address>
Subject: MV347: King at Nightfall
A King at Nightfall
Thanks Ed Tolputt and Gerald Smith for your e-mails about No Dice;
they emboldened me to have another go!
I think you're right about A King at Nightfall acting as a metaphor for
something of wider significance. As a late-comer to the discussion
group, I missed the earlier debate, so I apologise in advance if I'm
repeating anything that's been said already.
"It would be the same at the end of the journey,
If you came at night like a broken king . . . ."
"If I think of a king at nightfall,
Of three men, and more, on the scaffold
And a few who died forgotten
In other places, here and abroad,
And of one who died blind and quiet,
Why should we celebrate
These dead men more than the dying?"
Both quotes from Little Gidding, T.S. Eliot
I think it's a fairly safe assumption that this is the source of the
title. Clive obviously knows his T.S. Eliot well, having adopted the
same technique of literary/historical allusion, even to the extent of
parodying Eliot's decision to supply his own explanatory notes to The
Waste Land in the spoof critical notes at the end of his novel Brilliant
Creatures (wonder what he makes of Midnight Voices!)
So the wider metaphor may come from Little Gidding, in which T.S. Eliot
repeatedly explores the link between the specific and the universal - in
the context of the poem, the link between the small contemplative
religious community at Little Gidding in Cambridgeshire and the infinite
kingdom of God: "Here, the intersection of the timeless moment/Is
England and nowhere. Never and always." He also explores the nature
and meaning of history ("a pattern of timeless moments") and the process
by which an individual moves from personal experiences fixed in place
and time to an understanding which goes beyond both.
T.S. Eliot's king at nightfall is clearly Christ, but the poet then
widens his field of vision to include similar deaths, past and present.
So, if we use the same metaphor, Clive James' King at Nightfall may be
any or all of the historical kings to whom we can identify references.
But, widening the frame from the specific to the universal, he is also
Christ at the moment of death, stripped of his power and even of his own
belief in his divinity. The words "There'll be a price on your anointed
head", recalling the idea that the king is God's chosen representative
on earth, point to this link.
At the same time, he is everyone who has ever been forced to face the
loss of all his earthly power and possessions and to confront, alone,
his naked humanity. This is a theme which recurs again and again in
literature - from the earnest Christian belief of Everyman to the black
humour of The Bonfire of the Vanities - but not often stated so briefly
and memorably.
What do you think? (By the way, just in case anyone thinks personal
religious bias is distorting this interpretation, I'm an atheist. I
like my religious art though.)
Finally, I've just realised that Little Gidding throws almost as much
light on No Dice - even if you only look at the longest quote above.
However, I'd recommend any of the Voices not already familiar with T.S.
Eliot to start catching up. This is only one of many fascinating
resonances.
Mel Powell
==============================================================================
Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 23:47:50 -0800
From: m.powell <email address>
Subject: MV348: No Dice: another throw
No Dice: another throw
In the case of No Dice I think I can justify some amount of certainty.
Here's why:
1. The technique of examining a particular theme through historical
juxtaposition is one Clive uses elsewhere in 'The Last Hill That Shows
You All The Valley'. Pete explained the process and how it was used at
Monyash in his intro. to the unrecorded song Canoe, which also uses
different narrators from different ages to tell the story - although in
Canoe, the early Pacific explorers die and the crew of the unsuccessful
space probe survives.
2. Secondly, and more obviously: having tantalised us through the
initial four verses, Clive obligingly tells us what he's been up to in
the fifth!
What I'd welcome now are some ideas about the identities/cultures of the
characters in verses 1-4. My guesses so far are:
1, Aged Eskimo - fairly sure
2. 20th c. military - a marine craft landing on a Pacific island
3. A conquistador's expedition gone wrong - like Aguirre, Wrath of God?
4. 20th c. wartime execution - which could be any time in any country.
Over to you!
Mel Powell
==============================================================================
From: Benjamin.Peterson <email address>
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 97 17:37:36 +0000
Subject: MV349 Re: MV328: Pete at Winchester / pharaoh set aside
>Pete seemed quite nervous at first, forgetting the very first line of his
>opening Sunlight Gate...
I don't know why, but I felt a sudden surge of loyalty and pride when I read
that :)
To make up for this gratuitous wierdness, allow me to offer a (probably very
badly thought-out) suggestion on the pharoah conundrum:
There is no comma between 'god' and 'a pharaoh'; in other words, your love is
like the clouded ruins of a god set aside *by* a pharaoh against a rainy day.
This is an allusion to the scattergun religious tactics of the ancient
egyptians; they tended to go for weight of numbers and covering all the angles
rather than for spiritual depth. Thus, their funeral texts often read like the
meanderings of paranoiacs; long lists of passwords are given and accepted,
literally thousands of deities, aspects of deities, compass points, beasts,
buildings and incarnated natural forces are invoked and pacified, and the
overall impression is of some very desperate, lost people trying in vain to hide
from the fact of their approaching permanent demise.
A wealthy egyptian would spend considerable dough on long, complicated sequences
of incantations written in hieroglyphs that almost nobody could read.
Naturally, with time, the original meaning (if any) of the spell and the
original identity of the god would be gradually lost as the same texts were
copied out again and again in a dying language. Eventually, of course, they
forgot the whole lot, and used Greek instead. Silly berks.
But it's kind of sad, and I think it's a god in one of the latter stages of
transmutation into a meaningless talisman that's referred to here?
On the other hand, what do I know? I can't even order the Magpie CD cos they
won't take Amex. Pah. You won't catch *me* believing the hype again.
Benjamin Peterson
'Interactive TV? It's just interactive radio with pictures!'
==============================================================================
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 04:23:34 -0500
From: Mike Welbrock <email address>
Subject: MV350: Some promotion..
Has anyone noticed the plug for the web site in this month Q magazine?
Mike
==============================================================================
From: PayneS <email address>
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 11:02:37 +0000
Subject: MV351: applause
I'd just like to add mine for Mel Powell's efforts.
Re No Dice, This interpretation seems right on to me. A couple of
things still mystify me about the lyric. First, it seems very strange
in the last verse to refer to it as a "love song". Second, a minor
thing, there doesn't seem to be the chronological progression in the
verses/deaths that you might expect.
Finally on this, don't you think the title is just the kind of offbeat
joke Clive can't resist? - dice, after all, is the plural of die.
And thanks for the pointers to Eliot!
Stephen Payne
==============================================================================
Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 11:53:31 +0000
From: Leslie Moss <email address>
Subject: MV352 Re: MV336; MV329: Uncle Seabird
To Mike and Mel Powell
Many thanks for your efforts to answer my questions about the lyrics of
Uncle Seabird (and by the way my mind is blown by your exegesis of King at
Nightfall and No Dice).
>> First, who was Luria Cantrell ("When Fillmore West was still a carousel And
>> the chick to know was Luria Cantrell ")
>
>Sorry, we're equally stumped!
This is a mystery. Having searched the Web I can only find the Smash Flops
reference. Maybe she was an early Margarita Prakatan! Steve, can Pete help
out on this one?
>> Second, why does "Zimmerman" change his name to "Weberman" and not Dylan? I
>> have the feeling I'm missing something subtle here!
>
>Here's a guess - I think the word is actually 'Weatherman', in reference
>to Subterranean Homesick Blues. ("You don't need a Weatherman to know
>which way the wind blows": the Weathermen were a contemporary anarchist
>group.) The implied joke might be that Bob Dylan originally meant the
>line to include his own original surname - "You don't need a Zimmerman
>to know which way the wind blows", which would certainly have scanned.
>(Mel)
Thanks for your ingenious suggestion Mel. I've since done some research and
I think I've cracked it. It's probably nothing to do with SHB, especially as
the Weathermen took their name from the lyric not vice versa. (it was used
as the title of a position paper advocating armed struggle circulated at a
Students for a Democratic Society conference in June 69.) I assume therefore
that Dylan used the word "weatherman" in his lyric in its normal meaning,
which fits the context, whereas "Zimmerman" would not.
The Smash Flops wording is definitely Weberman (and that is how I hear the
lyric on Live Libel). I've discovered the existence of a guy called A J
Weberman on a Bob Dylan website. The quote below is extracted from that:
"Weberman, A.J.
In the late sixties and early seventies was the self-proclaimed world's
leading Dylanologist who, after
three years of self-publicity, finally met Dylan in 1971.
He became known for his new "science" called garbology, in which he went
through the subject's trash in
order to gather scraps of evidence to support his theories. Thinks that on
the Highway 61 Interactive
CD-ROM , Bob Dylan "has two messages to me on the disk""
The timing seems right and it has the CJ feel about it, the idea that
Zimmerman turns not into Dylan but into an interpreter of Dylan lyrics.
There's a wonderful paradox about this - who would have written the lyrics
that "Weberman" interpreted?!
>>
>> I'm also wondering who CJ based Uncle Seabird on if anyone? He seems to me
>> like a mixture of Bill Graham and Timothy Leary.
>
>On the back of the Live Libel album, it's credited "in memoriam Ralph J.
>Gleason". Gleason was a highly respected music journalist.
>
Thanks for the pointer to Ralph Gleason. Uncle Seabird does seem to be an
amalgam of various people, presumably Gleason souped-up. Someone suggested
Col. Tom Parker but he's referred to in to the song, as is Jack Kerouac,
another possible influence. I prefer to believe that no-one referred to
directly in the song was a specific influence.
The more I look into the meaning behind CJ's lyrics and the more I read of
others' interpretations the more impressed I am with the vast range of
cultural references and layers upon layers. At 20 these were just wonderful
songs to me, now they are also a source of illumination. Pete's music and
Clive's words constitute a body of work that simply *must* be brought to the
attention of a wider audience. Eternity *is* still a good address!
Leslie Moss
==============================================================================
Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 15:23:24 +0000
From: S J Birkill <email address>
Subject: MV353: Missing MV Posts?
Hi all,
I discover today that some MV members may have been missing messages sent
out since MV331 approx.
Haven't yet tracked down the reason, but I'm using a different SMTP server
for this note just in case. Please let me know (at <email address>) if you've
missed any in the series up to MV353 (there's some good stuff) and I'll
re-send them.
Weekly digest members too -- If you haven't received the Week 9 Digest
(MV291-333) just say the word and I'll try again.
Steve
==============================================================================
Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 18:43:46 GMT
From: email address (Michael J. Cross)
Subject: MV354: Luria "Cantrell"
Hi All,
Many thanks to Mel Powell for the detailed and fascinating explanations.
A few people have windered about Luria Cantrell - as mentioned in "Uncle
Seabird" - and I think I have the answer:
Here are some quotes from Ralph J. Gleason's "The Jefferson Airplane
and the San Francisco Sound", Ballantine Books, 95c, 1969:
From the dedication:
This book is for: Luria, Ellen, Jack and Kelly - the
original Family Dog who had the idea; Chet, who
carried it on; Bill, who made it survive; Big Daddy
Tom, who was right there all the time; ...
From page 1:
"Dancing is the thing ... they've got to give people a
place to dance. That's what's wrong with those Cow
Palace shows. THE KIDS CAN'T DANCE THERE. There'll be
no trouble when they can dance."
- Luria Castell, The Family Dog
Luria *Castell* is then mentioned frequently over - at least - the first
couple of pages.
So, the only question now is did Clive misremember (or deliberately change)
her surname? Or is there a typo in the lyrics on "Smash Flops"?
I'm not totally convinced that Ralph Gleason is Uncle Seabird; the fact that
Ralph is mentioned by name on the album cover - unlike the objects of the
other songs - suggests to me that he isn't. But I can't think of any
other candidate who fits the lyrics so well.
all the best,
--
Michael J. Cross BSFA Magazine Index at http://www.mjckeh.demon.co.uk
"Beware of the Beautiful Stranger/Driving Through Mythical America"
by Pete Atkin & Clive James, CD reissue 10/97 on See For Miles
For more info on all PA/CJ releases, see http://www.rwt.co.uk/pa.htm
==============================================================================
Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 23:44:46 -0800
From: m.powell <email address>
Subject: MV355 Re: MV353: Missing MV Posts?
> I discover today that some MV members may have been missing messages sent
> out since MV331 approx.
>
> Haven't yet tracked down the reason, but I'm using a different SMTP server
> for this note just in case. Please let me know (at <email address>) if you've
> missed any in the series up to MV353 (there's some good stuff) and I'll
> re-send them.
Steve - I don't think any are missing but I have had a few cases of
duplicate postings. This is obviously not a real problem but by
coincidence I subscribe to only two other such groups and they have both
had cases of duplicates. One of them went completely out of control and
members were receiving dozens of copies. I don't know enough about how
these things work to say why this happened or what risk there is of any
other group (such as this one) experiencing the same problem. Hope we
don't find out and good luck with the solution.
Mike Powell
<email address>
==============================================================================
Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 22:27:37 GMT
From: email address (Michael J. Cross)
Subject: MV356: Luria Who?
Hi All,
To continue from my earlier message about Luria Castell ....
I've now listened to "Uncle Seabird", after many years of not listening
to _Live Libel_ at all, and Pete definitely sings Cantrell.
I tried a web search on 'Luria' and found many people with it as a
surname, and a search for 'Luria Castell' came up with no hits at all.
I did find a few hits on 'The Family Dog' that weren't about man's best
friend but none of them went into detail about the members.
I'm inclined to trust Gleason's spelling even though he refers to Nick
Gravenites as Nick Gravenitis later in the book.
On the subject of who 'Uncle Seabird' is .... could it be Ken Kesey?
I'm not sure how involved he was in the music scene, but the
reference to 'Uncle Seabird's acid test' could refer to Ken Kesey's
Acid Test. Or maybe, as someone else suggested, he's a composite
of people like Bill Graham, Timothy Leary, Kesey, Gleason etc.
However I'm not sure if any of these were aged 87 - see last verse - in
the right time frame.
all the best,
--
Michael J. Cross BSFA Magazine Index at http://www.mjckeh.demon.co.uk
"Beware of the Beautiful Stranger/Driving Through Mythical America"
by Pete Atkin & Clive James, CD reissue 10/97 on See For Miles
For more info on all PA/CJ releases, see http://www.rwt.co.uk/pa.htm
==============================================================================
From: DangerDon <email address>
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 18:38:10 EST
Subject: MV357 Re: Pete Atkin
On the night that I got a seat in the front row of Pete's Islington gig, some
bugger broke into my house at 4a.m. and stole my computer. The insurance
company have finally coughed up a paltry sum to replace it, so I've only just
caught up on a huge backlog of voices stuff...
So first, yes please to either the double or single C.D.
Second, the Islington gig was magical: Senior Citizens made the hairs on the
back of my neck stand up. Two of us called out for Perfect Moments as the
final encore, and were rewarded with a stunning rendition. And I'm sure Pete
must have been encouraged when he stumbled during an early song - only to find
that half the audience were about word perfect and carried him along right
through to the song's end...
Third, lyrically, I've always admired the four rhyming triplets in FMOTH
("...sick, hate days..trick fate plays...thick weight stays...brick gateways")
which CJ could seemingly knock off at will. That and "an hour alone spells
freedom to the slave " still work for me after all these years. Oh, and I
still find myself dropping into conversations the words "...there's a slight
but considerable danger " (that we're lost, say) so that remains a favourite
too.
Fourth, I've rambled on too long.
Keep up the splendid work
Best wishes,
Don Bowen
==============================================================================
Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 19:07:25 +0000
From: Leslie Moss <email address>
Subject: MV358: The Man who walked towards the music
We all seem to have gone a bit quiet! Time for a question.
"He thought that Rickenbacker was a pilot"
Rickenbacker is a guitar, but which pilot I wonder?
Leslie
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Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 20:46:16 +0000
From: S J Birkill <email address>
Subject: MV359 Re: MV358: The Man who walked towards the music
Also Rickenbacker -- WW I US pilot Eddie Rickenbacker to be precise!
see http://www.wtj.com/pl/pages/rick.htm
-- Steve
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Date: Sat, 08 Nov 1997 10:05:48 +0000
From: Leslie Moss <email address>
Subject: MV360 Re: MV359; MV358: The Man who walked towards the music
At 20:47 07/11/97 +0000, you wrote:
>Also Rickenbacker -- WW I US pilot Eddie Rickenbacker to be precise!
>
>see http://www.wtj.com/pl/pages/rick.htm
>
>-- Steve
Thanks Steve, you're "a mine of information" too!
Leslie
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Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 05:15:45 -0500
From: Tony Currie <email address>
Subject: MV361: The See For Miles CD
It arrived this morning at 7:30. And it's been played 3 times already, with
no ill effects.
Impressions:
1.Sloppy proofreading "Charles Shaar Murray" becomes "Shear" and "Biro"
changes to "Bird".
2.Nice touch, putting quotes from contemporary sources in insert, as well
as showing both the original and reissue album covers.
3.Disappointingly, the same commentary as in THAM, but as this got such
limited circulation I'm probably being very unfair here.
4.Listening to the tracks in what seemed pretty much the original order,
rather than the random mixing on THAM,brought back memories (did someone
say touch was better?).I found myself leading into songs confidently, a
comfortable feeling.
5.The DTMA songs seemed to have the vocals set at too low a level, with the
music often more dominant than I'd remembered (particularly noticed on
Where Have They All Gone), but maybe that's cos I'm not playing it on an
old Garrard SP45, through an Amstrad amp and dodgy speakers.
6.The highs and lows of BOTBS:
-arrangements such as Frangipanni
-words such as Aorta, which I'd never heard before,
haven't heard since and still haven't looked up
-Biro, where PA overreaches himself and strains to get the
power the song cries for
7.The revisiting of "Original HonkyTonk Train Blues" reminded me that PA
had a great comic gift, maybe I'll dig out Live Libel again (an album I
never really rated).
Let's have the next two soon!
Apologies for the indulgence,
Tony
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Date: Sat, 08 Nov 1997 14:48:02 +0000
From: S J Birkill <email address>
Subject: MV362: On and on
On Mail problems (MV353):
Methinks we might have tracked down the non-delivery bug. Only CompuServe
members were affected. That guardian of family values, safe neighborhoods,
mom's apple pie, user-friendliness and all things decent has installed new
highly intelligent (duh...) spam-filtering software which by default is ON
-- the subscriber must actively deselect the option in his or her account.
Our 'mass' mailing of a dozen or so MV posts on Saturday after a couple
days away seems to have nudged the hapless bot into branding MV as junk
mail. CS victims (I've mailed you separately via RWT so the message doesn't
get blocked) GO SPAMCONTROLS and select OFF. Or switch to a mainstream ISP
and cut those monthly bills into the bargain!
The repetition of two messages in that same cluster is not a sign of MV's
imminent disappearance up its own self-referential infinite regress pathway
(it's not 'smart' enough for that -- I do all MV's forwarding me-self so it
knows about the consequences; that makes it DUMB in computer terms), or of
my own imminent (allegedly) senility, merely of document-wrangling errors
at this end. While turning around the posts for transmission two messages
somehow swapped their headers with another pair, so 327 and 328 went a
second time, the mailer thinking they were 324 and 332. I spotted the
duplication (thanks John for the log) when they came back to RWT, and
re-sent the correct 324 and 332 later. Please forgive such slips -- as Mike
remarks (MV355) they're preferable to the havoc wreakable by a rogue
listserver.
On phrases balanced and lapidary (MV357):
To Don's 'slight but considerable danger' I would add the following, which
long ago became assimilated into my own sad repertoire of worn-in phrases:
The queue stretches right down the hall
Knobs and screws and toggles
Who is this guy? (and why does he want me)
Residues of which you're better rid
Illumined by a light
On Cantrell, Weberman, Gleason and Seabird
(MV329,336,339,341,343,352,354,356):
Pete thinks the corruption of Luria Castell to 'Cantrell' (which he sings)
is just a mistake which neither he nor Clive picked up on at the time. A J
Weberman, Dylan's unofficial biographer, is of course the right Weberman.
Ralph J Gleason's mention on LL was prompted simply by his (then) recent
death, and doesn't indicate he was a (or the) primary basis of the Seabird
character. Pete suggests the composite, the compound ghost so well fleshed
out by the Voices, would be almost completed by the addition of some Wavy
Gravy and a bit of Robert Crumb's Mr Natural. US's age is "simply a
reflection of the way so many oldies seemed to cash in on the whole San
Francisco thing, maybe largely for the sake of what used to be coyly
referred to as 'poon-tang'."
On Natasha (MV328,338,340,344,345):
Stephen Payne's light-hearted remark reverberated heavily around the group,
didn't it? I don't think there's any doubt Tolstoy's heroine was in Clive's
mind here.
On Kings, Princes and Dice
(MV279,283,286,287,296,299,312,320,324,330,348,351):
Mel Powell gets this year's Ph.D in Atkin/James studies. "Amazing" says
Pete. But he remarks that it might be a mistake to read all (or any) of it
necessarily as Clive's intention. For instance he supposes that with the
phrase 'a king at nightfall' a whole range of possible implications, the
whole idea for the song even, simply sprang out at him off Eliot's page,
the phrase itself the grain of sand in the oyster shell. Whilst all the
references are right, perhaps Clive never meant to be specific about his King.
It seems probable too that The Waste Land, rather than El Desdichado
itself, was Clive's first encounter with the Prince of Aquitaine, though
Pete cites Donald Swann ('At the Drop of a Hat') as another possible source.
Eliot seems to have successfully predicted other song titles too: Winter
Kept Us Warm (The Waste Land), You Are The Music (Dry Salvages), Because I
Have No Hope Of Coming Back (almost -- Ash-Wednesday); Prufrock pre-echoes
Payday Evening while themes expressed in Tenderfoot are explored in Little
Gidding. Eye Of The Universe can be found throughout the Four Quartets.
The attempted 'love song' referred to in No Dice isn't necessarily No Dice
itself -- as noted in MV351, it doesn't qualify.
And (back to Faded Mansion) Pete acknowledged in the 'Touch has a memory'
sleeve note (http://www.rwt.co.uk/notes.htm) that Clive's imagery related
to Sydney, while for Pete the images it conjured up were of Raymond
Chandler's Los Angeles.
On Live Libel (MV274,303):
Lest anyone should have interpreted my note (MV303) as suggesting LL was a
deliberate finale, here's Pete to set the record straight (I don't think
he'll mind the direct quote), and to comment on the frustrations of dealing
with record companies:
" - we never intended it, of course, to be the album we
'went out on'. We were mightily fed up with RCA's marketing and we didn't
want to give them another 'real' album. Having expensively (for me anyway)
put a band together for a promotional tour for the first time with the
release of Road Of Silk we discovered that they'd pressed a pathetically
small number of copies of the album (2500 I think) which disappeared almost
immediately so we were touring quite successfully but with no records in
the shops until about six weeks later. We complained big and got a promise
that it wouldn't happen again. So, Secret Drinker, another band, another
fairly comprehensive tour, and guess what? The fact that ROS, even after
the initial disaster, had still sold 10000 made no difference. Same thing.
After a week or two, no copies in the shops. They'd told us they were
pressing 5000 this time (big deal), but we found out afterwards they
hadn't. They claimed the factory had unilaterally altered the run to 2500
again because they needed the capacity for whatever
their current big thing was - Bowie or Bonnie Tyler or Middle Of The Road
or James Galway or a Jim Reeves reissue or something. So we thought Sod it.
I was committed to giving them another album and since there was some
clear demand for the joky ones to appear on record we decided on that as
the contractual fulfilment album, planning to take the next real album
elsewhere. As it turned out come 1976 all of the companies we thought might
be a better bet (no indies to speak of back then) couldn' see us fitting
into the burgeoning punk thing that was obsessing them, and the seventh
album just never got made. I carried on gigging, but without a deal it
never had much future and I started turning to other things to pay the
rent. More important, without album sessions in the offing, a lot of the
writing impetus was dissipated - for both of us - specially since Clive
had never made much money out of the albums anyway and his TV opportunities
- what he'd always really wanted to do - were increasing
significantly. It's not perhaps the romantic view of the creative artist,
but writing songs for us was never a matter of 'self-expression', of giving
vent to some kind of deep spiritual urge for its own sake; if there was
no realistic chance of reaching an audience, there was never any point in
writing.
"So LL was, as the MVs have assumed, just a collection of things we had
already, assembled into an arguably spurious format. I think Clive's own
feature (Why) was the only thing we wrote specially.
"Stephen Payne asked a while back about how album content was decided,
since there are some things, like Tongue-Tied, which go back a bit. There
was never any grand scheme or concept. It was always a matter of putting
down the songs we were most excited about at the time. That tended
naturally to be the ones we'd just written, even though that meant they
sometimes hadn't had a chance to settle down, which is probably the main
reason why I sometimes do things a bit differently now from the way they
are on the records - not wilful or wanton change for the sake of it.
"Choosing the order of the songs on the records wasn't exactly scientific
but there were some sort of rules that I applied. First and pretty obvious,
I'd want to keep certain songs apart - songs with similar tempo, same key
(more important than you might think if you're not normally aware of these
things), similar mood, etc. And then it was always important that your side
one and side two openers were attention-grabbers - that's one of the
largely unacknowledged ways that LPs were significantly different from CDs.
Add in the need to create two equal 20-minute programmes and there probably
aren't all that many possible variations in practice."
On See For Miles (MV361):
Yes, it's out! Now! The CD went from SFM to their distributor Pinnacle on
Wednesday, and Magpie have already delivered to at least one Voice. On
BotBS, in substituting Touch has a Memory for Be Careful... they've
retained the RCA running order, rather than the original Fontana. And
though requested, they haven't plugged any Website but their own. Never
mind. But pity about "Have you got a bird I can borrow?" (Sixties or
what?!! -- PA). If you haven't ordered the CD by mail, hassle your local
record store. Who knows, they might order some extra copies!
On festival recordings (MV239):
Thank you all for your pledges of support. We will be going ahead with a
batch of the double CD (all Pete and Julie's songs from the fest but no
intros) and the videotape (the entire PA/JC set). Please bear with me a
week or two, and await an announcement here before attempting to order. We
may soon have some news too about next year's bigger and better concert ...
See you anon
-- Steve
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