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Web Digest week 48 (26.07.98, MV1300-1315) begins | index | prev | next |
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Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 15:23:26 +0000
From: Stephen Payne <email address>
Subject: MV1300 Re MV 1299: Remembering to be expected

I know for sure I'm not the only one to be grateful for this latest
offering, but thanks Pete (and Steve) for yet more hours of pain and
pleasure.   Smash Flops and Midinight Voices really are the best things
since, well, since I discovered Pete's records in the first place....

S

PS I liked Ian's song of the week - or was it month? - idea.  I miss all
that erudition we used to get about lyrics from Mel and Dave and others.

==============================================================================
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 20:30:40 +0100
From: S J Birkill <email address>
Subject: MV1301: More Chords!

Sunlight Gate - http://www.rwt.co.uk/b1c.htm
Pearl-Driller - http://www.rwt.co.uk/b2c.htm

"Enjoy!"!

Also... you may not have noticed while browsing the Website, but the entire
discography is still available as a single (long) page at
http://www.rwt.co.uk/disworks.htm

-- Steve

==============================================================================
From: Cary <email address>
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 22:09:30 +0000
Subject: MV1302: Major Domo

I know I'm going to regret asking this question as soon as the answer 
comes in and is blindinly obvious ..... In many of the committee's of 
the Cambridge Footlights there is the post of Major Domo - what does 
this mean? Any relationship to the Majordomo list serves? And what 
*does* the Falconer do? Hoping someone can enlighten me - gently 
please if it is something I should have known.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~        
ROCK FOLLIES - The Classic 1970's TV Drama starring 
Julie Covington, Charlotte Cornwell and Rula Lenska. 
Online at:-  http://members.xoom.com/Follies
Pictures,sounds and much more (unofficial site)
 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Regards - Cary (like Mary with a 'C' for cat)

==============================================================================
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 03:10:53 +0100
From: Gerald Smith <email address>
Subject: MV1303: sunlight gate

Hello All, musicians amongst us, especially

	Just to say, wot a joy it is to finally be able to sit down and play
'Sunlight Gate', one of my most favourite PA numbers.

The chords to this song have confounded me for years and years - although,
they become plain as day set out in front of me at the piano.  In five
minutes after downloading my mail tonight, I've managed to play a song, the
chords for which have eluded me since the year dot, despite a five minute
coaching (without pen and paper handy) from  Pete in person, after his gig
at Islington, last October.  

I seem to remember, Pete said in a mail to MV some time ago that the
harmony of his songs was derived from the melody ( as opposed to most
popular culture numbers which derive a melody from a fixed underlying chord
structures).  This song just goes to prove it.  The 'pedal' D with the
shifting chords over the top in  the introduction, in retrospect, I
couldn't hear correctly because of the brass parts (on the album) and  the
remainder throws away the rule book.  The characteristic and  oft mentioned
tritone makes several appearances too (this isn't a treatise, so no
elaboration here (Zzzzz).

Anyway, to save much wittering, thanks for these chords, and look forward
to the 5th of August at Eastbourne.

Best to all

Gerry smith

PS Pete - any chance of a rendition of SG at Eastbourne, or, if not, Buxton?

Gerald Smith's Homepage :
http://web.ukonline.co.uk/gerald.smith/index.htm

==============================================================================
From: Dave Jones <email address>
Subject: MV1304 RE: MV1299: Remembering to be Expected
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 13:18:39 -0400

[corrected - see MV1306]

Hi All,
    Going over Pete's chords for "You can't expect to be remembered" I tried 
to match the chord names with the particular fingerings I had already worked 
out for some of the song, and it occurred to me that some would be scratching 
their heads at progressions like "C A7 Dm11 Gaug".  Depending on your 
experience with the guitar and your source for chord shapes this could give 
you hand cramps and still not sound right.

If I may add my tuppenceworth, what I have found is that Pete favors familiar 
chords with a note or two sharpened or flattened for seasoning. Thus these 
chords are relatively easy fingerings, it's just the names that are confusing.

C you know.  A7 is not the folk-club key-of-D version, but A with the G string 
left open.  Move to it from C by lifting the first finger off the B string and 
bringing the third finger to the B string at the second fret.

What I had worked out after that consists of moving your fingers up one fret 
on the same strings and adding the first finger on the G string at A.  I'll  
let the chord mavens argue about what to call that one. Dm(9) ?  Dm11 would 
have to have a G in it as well as a C.  I'd be tempted to add them on the two 
bass strings at fret 3 or just leave them out altogether.

The next one had given me some trouble. I only knew it was G-something. If I 
read Gaug correctly as "G with sharpened fifth", then it could be as simple as 
G on the top E string, D# on the B string.  You can leave the G string open or 
play B on it, as far as I'm concerned. To make it a five-string chord you can 
reach over and make a D at the fifth fret on the A string.  That leaves you 
with two strings playing the same note, which is often nice, especially in the 
treble.  There are other possibilities for the middle strings, but I'll leave 
it at that.

Likewise Bb A7+ A7 Dm later in the song sounds daunting, but the A7+ is just 
the A7 described above, plus  your first finger making F on the top E string. 
The relationship of that chord to a straightforward Bb is obvious, and the 
pull-off to A7 followed by the transition to a conventional Dm is no trouble 
at all.

I will raise one quibble: there is audibly and necessarily an E or E7 needed 
to lead into Am for the bridge of the song ("You'll be there....").  G7 won't 
do for me.

I hope this all hasn't been too boring for the non-guitarists.  I just wanted 
to point out how accessible Pete's style really is.  As Einstein almost said, 
he is subtle, but he is not malicious.

Dave Jones
Stacking notes in Rochester NY.

==============================================================================
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 19:38:39 +0100
From: S J Birkill <email address>
Subject: MV1305: 'Together At Last' interview

MV member and one-time BBC Radio Cleveland DJ Graeme Aldous has transcribed
for us his own interview with Pete and Clive, on the occasion of their
'Together At Last' tour gig at Middlesbrough Town Hall in November 1975.
Read it at

http://www.rwt.co.uk/rcleveld.htm

==============================================================================
From: Steve Birkill <email address>
Subject: MV1306: Apology to Dave Jones
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998

Somehow, while 'topping and tailing' Dave's message MV1304, I inadvertently
deleted a couple of words. I put them back as I thought they'd been, but
made an error which subtly changed Dave's meaning, making the comment sound
flippant, which he hadn't intended.

The sentence "I'll bet the chord mavens argue about what to call that one."
should read "I'll let the chord mavens argue about what to call that one."

Sorry Dave! Here follows the full message, with the correction in place:
                    _____________________________________

From: Dave Jones <email address>
Subject: RE: MV1299: Remembering to be Expected
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 13:18:39 -0400

Hi All,
    Going over Pete's chords for "You can't expect to be remembered" I
tried to match the chord names with the particular fingerings I had already
worked out for some of the song, and it occurred to me that some would be
scratching their heads at progressions like "C A7 Dm11 Gaug".  Depending on
your experience with the guitar and your source for chord shapes this could
give you hand cramps and still not sound right.

If I may add my tuppenceworth, what I have found is that Pete favors
familiar chords with a note or two sharpened or flattened for seasoning.
Thus these chords are relatively easy fingerings, it's just the names that
are confusing.

C you know.  A7 is not the folk-club key-of-D version, but A with the G
string left open.  Move to it from C by lifting the first finger off the B
string and bringing the third finger to the B string at the second fret.

What I had worked out after that consists of moving your fingers up one
fret on the same strings and adding the first finger on the G string at A.
I'll let the chord mavens argue about what to call that one. Dm(9) ?  Dm11
would have to have a G in it as well as a C.  I'd be tempted to add them on
the two bass strings at fret 3 or just leave them out altogether.

The next one had given me some trouble. I only knew it was G-something. If
I read Gaug correctly as "G with sharpened fifth", then it could be as
simple as G on the top E string, D# on the B string.  You can leave the G
string open or play B on it, as far as I'm concerned. To make it a
five-string chord you can reach over and make a D at the fifth fret on the
A string.  That leaves you with two strings playing the same note, which is
often nice, especially in the treble.  There are other possibilities for
the middle strings, but I'll leave it at that.

Likewise Bb A7+ A7 Dm later in the song sounds daunting, but the A7+ is
just the A7 described above, plus  your first finger making F on the top E
string. The relationship of that chord to a straightforward Bb is obvious,
and the pull-off to A7 followed by the transition to a conventional Dm is
no trouble at all.

I will raise one quibble: there is audibly and necessarily an E or E7
needed to lead into Am for the bridge of the song ("You'll be there....").
G7 won't do for me.

I hope this all hasn't been too boring for the non-guitarists.  I just
wanted to point out how accessible Pete's style really is.  As Einstein
almost said, he is subtle, but he is not malicious.

Dave Jones
Stacking notes in Rochester NY.

==============================================================================
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 00:35:51 +0100
From: S J Birkill <email address>
Subject: MV1307 Re: MV1306 Apology Re: MV1304; MV1299: Remembering to be Expected

Afterthought on my last message:

I didn't go into detail on how I managed to garble Dave Jones' message,
because I didn't want to bore anyone with technicalities. But some of you
must inevitably be wondering whether, since by the way in which I choose to
operate MV I have manual input to the process, I habitually 'edit' or
'doctor' members' posts.

So this is to reassure you I don't! Except for a mistake like tonight's, I
don't change the content of any message passing through. The closest I get
is when some members quote the whole of the post being replied to,
resulting in something like:

In message <blahblahblahblah@email.address> Midnight Voices
<email address> wrote:
>
>
> [Quotation of entire message and sig, with consequent wrapping of sig.]
>
>===========================================================================
===
>                   The Pete Atkin e-mail Discussion Group       
>              Midnight Voices <midnight.voices@email.address>      
>===========================================================================
===
>

before their comments begin. In these cases, unless the quoted message is
very old, I generally make sure the original is referred to in the
'Subject' line (e.g. 'Re: MV1306') and delete the quotation part before
forwarding to MV. Short quotes I leave in place as they help readers follow
the thread. Quotes of intermediate length I occasionally shorten, with a
[snip] comment inserted to indicate this. Square brackets [ ] indicate my
input.

Otherwise all I do is strip off the message header block, leaving only the
'From', 'Subject' and 'Date' lines, add a separator line at the top and sig
at the bottom, and remove extraneous carriage returns.

This latter is where I slipped up with Dave's message. Some e-mail programs
send 
text in strings without carriage return characters at the end of each line,
only at 
paragraph breaks. But most send CRs at the end of each line. This is fine
where the 
message's line length matches or is shorter than that of the Eudora I use
here. But if 
it's longer, Eudora inserts its own CR just a word or two before the
original, giving 
the unfortunate effect I've simulated so far in this paragraph. This often
happens with quoted text, as the quote character (>) and space lengthen a
line that was originally the correct length, to the point where the extra
wrap occurs.

Others only insert a single CR at a paragraph break, resulting in
paragraphs with no spaces between them. Just recently I've begun to expand
these, again to make them more readable.

All of these operations take only a matter of seconds with most messages
passing through, and I haven't felt the need to automate them, for instance
by exporting the mail prog's text into a word processor and running a
macro, then shuffling it back into the mail system. It would in any case
take a degree of diligence for me to be satisfied that nothing had been
altered or lost in the process, or layout ruined, in messages from all the
flavours of mailer which our members use. 

So, Dave's message this time being of the 'long line before CR' type
(though sometimes he sends short lines -- see MV1293), I removed his CRs
manually. But my hand slipped and I wiped out a couple of words too. I
immediately put them back according to my visual memory of them, but I got
one letter wrong. And I'm full of sympathy -- I too know how it hurts, as I
said to Dave, when some fool sub-editor converts your carefully-considered
prose into journalistic drivel.

Now you may ask what do I do if I think someone has made an error of tact
(OK, a serious error of tact) or judgement? I mail them and politely
suggest a rephrasing or change of emphasis. Well, I would, if it ever
happened ...

What has happened is that members have sent a post they immediately
realised was unfinished, or contained errors. In those cases they have
e-mailed me direct to that effect, and I have held back the offending post.
The only other intervention I make is in cases where the sender chooses to
withhold his e-mail address. This is the case with Pete and Clive, and is
another advantage of manual processing.

Enough explanation of the rude mechanicals, I think. I'll be more careful.

-- Steve

==============================================================================
From: Dave Jones <email address>
Subject: MV1308 RE: MV1302: Major Domo
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 14:10:39 -0400

Since the classicists haven't responded to Cary's
enquiry yet, I'll throw in a scientist's interpretation.
The word 'majordomo' in my dictionary is defined
as a head steward or butler.  The post would have
been at the head of staff of a household (that's the
'domo' part).

These days a Majordomo might be the guy in 
charge of seating in a restaurant, or anybody
who is a factotum, organiser, or head cook and
bottlewasher.  In Footlights terms the Major
Domo could be the Stage Manager, the Producer,
or the Secretary  etc.  Probably the person did
all the fiddly details so that the rest could be
creative, get drunk, impersonate Noel
Coward etc. (a feature of early 70s Footlights,
according to Douglas Adams).

In terms of mailing lists, majordomo is this nice
software robot that takes care of all the fiddly
details so the owner of the mailing list can be
creative, get drunk, impersonate Jerry Garcia
etc.

Dave Jones
Gratefully alive in Rochester NY.

==============================================================================
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 23:27:27 +0100
From: S J Birkill <email address>
Subject: MV1309 Re: MV1308; MV1302: Major Domo and the Falconer

Pete Atkin adds:

Major Domo was a pretty much meaningless title for one of the Footlights
committee members, rather than have anything quite so baldly and overtly
functionless as a mere committee member.   I've no idea how far back it
dates.  Do they still have it, I wonder (but not often or much). Same goes
for Falconer, though we did invent that in my time specifically for Rob
Buckman as committee member (derived as a - how you say? - jeu d'esprit
(i.e. feeble joke) from Falcon Yard where the clubroom used to be - not
just that the clubroom isn't there any more, Falcon Yard isn't there any
more, destroyed in one of the worst pieces of urban vandalism committed by
any town or city anywhere in the country).

-- Steve

==============================================================================
From: B & J Cotterill <email address>
Subject: MV1310 re 1304.1306 & 1307
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 07:27:31 +0100

Hi All
With reference to Dave Jones' explanations about chords and fingerings, as
an almost non-guitarist I was lost after the third paragraph,but it wasn't
boring at all, Dave.  I thought about dragging the piano nearer to the
computer, but decided against it;  carried on reading and just let the
words waft over me :-).   And to think I remember when the dominant 7th at
the end of She Loves You was the most exciting chord I'd ever heard!   

Steve:  your apology and afterthought were fascinating.   When I read that
you had inadvertantly edited out a couple of words from MV 1304, I thought
"does he do this all the time?"   So I was relieved to read your
afterthought and amazed at how complex it all is.

regards
Jenny

==============================================================================
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 04:54:07 -0400
From: Mike Welbrock <email address>
Subject: MV1311 Re: 1304; MV1299: Remembering to be Expected

Dave

The one chord I didn't know in this progression is Dm11, why did you leave
it out?

Mike Welbrock
Fumbling notes in Wimbledon, UK

==============================================================================
From: Dave Jones <email address>
Subject: MV1312 RE: MV1311; MV1304; MV1299: Remembering to be Expected
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 09:51:08 -0400

>The one chord I didn't know in this progression 
>is Dm11, why did you leave it out?
>Mike Welbrock
>Fumbling notes in Wimbledon, UK

Sorry Mike, the point I was trying to get across was
that I play a particular chord at that point in the song
which may or may not be classifiable as Dm11, or
indeed correspond to what Pete had in mind. It sounds
right to me, and that's what I'm going with.  It consists
of the notes F, A, D and E (playing only the top strings
in semi-arpeggio style).  F,A,D is an inversion of Dm and
E is the 9th of D, so Dm(9) seemed like a good name.

Strictly Dm11 would be D, F, A, C, E and G.  You could
add C to my chord on the A string and G on the top E,
but then you'd lose the nice dissonance between D and E.
You'd also have one of those "five strings, four fingers"
situations which result in squashing one finger across 
two strings.

Shall I expound on chords ? Why not. In the Western
musical tradition we make chords by stacking alternate
notes in a scale.  The easiest way to see this is to
look at a piano keyboard, starting with G.  Call this 1,
then add 3 (B) and 5 (D) for the chord of G major.
Add 7 (F) for G7, 9 (A) for G9, and 11 (C) for G11.

All white notes, you notice, and if you take the top
three and move them down an octave you would
be hitting every key from F through D simultaneously.
Just like slamming your hand across all those keys.
Sounds awful, but when the notes are spread out
it sounds interesting.  Notice also that G11 is like
playing the chords of G major and F major at the 
same time.

You can go on to G13 (add E) etc. etc.  Not only is
this less common, for guitarists it's perverse because
there are seven or more notes and only six strings
to play them on.

The minor chords are the same but the 3 note is
flattened.  A maj7 chord is a 7 chord with the 7
sharpened. A '+' or 'aug' chord is the basic 1,3,5
with the 5 sharpened, just as a 'dim' chord is
1,3,5 with 5 flattened.  For a 'sus4' (suspended
fourth), sharpen the 3 of a major chord.

And so on.  As a notation this has severe limitations,
hence all the doubt about what to call a chord,
and the appearance of oddballs like Fmin(maj7)
in "You can't expect to be remembered". I called for
A7sus4 in "Wristwatch", which Pete would probably
have called A11 (see "Sunlight Gate").  In the end
it's the sound that counts.

Dave Jones
Playing by ear in Rochester NY.

==============================================================================
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 20:04:44 +0100
From: Lesley Hodges <email address>
Subject: MV1313 Re: MV1309; MV1308; MV1302: Major Domo and the Falconer

Midnight Voices wrote:
> 
> from Falcon Yard where the clubroom used to be - not
> just that the clubroom isn't there any more, Falcon Yard isn't there any
> more, destroyed in one of the worst pieces of urban vandalism committed by
> any town or city anywhere in the country).

Where was Falcon Yard?  I have forgotten. Lesley

==============================================================================
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 22:42:02 +0100
From: S J Birkill <email address>
Subject: MV1314 Re: MV1313; MV1309; MV1308; MV1302: Major Domo and the
  Falconer

>
>Where was Falcon Yard?  I have forgotten. Lesley
>

There are some descriptions of old Cambridge locations on the Web:

http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/users/ckh/camdoc.html
http://www.anglia.ac.uk/~systimk/History/Cam/Lion-Yard.Html
http://www.anglia.ac.uk/~systimk/History/Cam/Footlights.Html

Couldn't find a map though...

Steve

==============================================================================
Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 17:24:20 +0100
From: S J Birkill <email address>
Subject: MV1315: Eastbourne - a reminder

Just in case anyone's been off the planet for the past few weeks, or hasn't
checked the Web site, I'm reminding you all of the fact that Pete will be
playing the Eastbourne Folk Club on Wednesday this coming week, August 5th.

The venue is the upstairs front room of the Crown public house in Crown
Street, which lies in the fork between the junction of the A259 and A22 to
the north-west of Eastbourne town centre. From the centre (it's not far)
stay with the A22 Upperton Road (right fork) at the junction and then turn
left in 400 yds into New Upperton Road (the third or fourth left turn), or
if you miss that, Watts Lane or Prospect Gdns will also bring you into
Crown Street.

The club normally starts at 8.30, and it's a pay-at-the-door operation.
I've no idea how many MVs will be there but quite a few have mentioned
their intention, so you're advised to get there early - the room will fill
up, and you can't see much from the stairs or hear much from the downstairs
bar, though the street outside could sustain an overflow if the weather's
fine!

There's a couple of Web links for the club and the venue from Smash Flops:

http://www.brighton.co.uk/listings/folk/folk1.htm#eastbourne (with Phone Nos)
http://www.pavilion.co.uk/veastbourne/catering/crown.html

This is Pete's warm-up for Buxton and he might be trying something new!

Steve

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Web Digest week 48 (26.07.98, MV1300-1315) ends   | index | prev | next |
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