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      Web Digest, week 3 (13.09.97, MV86 - 118) begins  | index | prev | next |
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      Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 17:58:12 +0100 (BST)
      Subject: MV86: Re: Digest: Midnight Voices week 1
      From: <email address> (Stephen R Bennett)
      
      Hi Everyone, 
      YET ANOTHER INTRODUCTION(I didn't know that I had so many Dopplegangers) 
      I'm a 43 year old (welsh decent)  ex rugby playing Male working as a 
      self Employed Graphics and Design Consultant (Not yet Successful). 
       
      I first got into PA/CJ after a girlfriend of mine kept me up all night
      listening to BOTBS, 
      DTMA, and assorted CSNY, Leonard Cohen, Judy Collins and James Taylor, The
      last Four I'd heard off  but who was this guy Pete Atkin!!!. 
       
      As an 18yr old the last thing I wanted was to " spend all night listening
      to music ",can you blame me! 
      but after the JT and CSNY on went BOTBS, I was hooked. like Cohen there
      were intelligent thought provoking lyrics,but there the comparison ended
      while LC was always contemplative even at times depressive. 
       BOTBT was refreshing, thought provoking even at times humorous what a
      find, as dawn broke it found us replaying DTMA for the 3rd time (what her
      flat mates thought by this time I hate to think) and discussing what the
      lyrics REALLY MEANT.  
      We were still talking about it over Breakfast with her Flatmates ,( 2 quite
      scantily clad young ladies as I remember....and me Talking Lyrics, by now a
      Hopeless case of acute ATKINISM). 
       One of the Flatmates who's names have dissapeared in the mists of time(
      Sorry Girls if you read this and remember, its been a hectic 25 years!)
      said that they were going to Salford Uni. that night to see some guy called
      .....Pete ATKIN... 
       The gods were truely with me, introduced to PA one night and within 24
      hours I was off to see him Live. 
       The start of a long journey- 
      From heavy / underground Rocker.(Pink Floyd, Led Zeppelin,Stackridge,
      Family ,King 
      Crimson, The Nice ,Jimmy H. Jefferson Airplane, Free, The Doors ,Dr John
      ,Frank Zappa , Captain Beefheart, CSNandY) 
      through PA /CJ for many years and as a natural extension into other English
      singer/songwriters _Nick Drake,  Clifford T Ward, Jake Thakerey, Sandy
      Denny and from Sandy into what for the last 20 years has been my musical
      love Fairport Convention ( and Steeleye Span, Albion Band, Fotheringay, and
      all things FOLK ROCK,  
      but no pipes/arun sweaters.....  I promise). 
      looking forward to the re-release of the albums on C.D.. 
      sorry for such a long posting, look at my website:- 
               http://village.vossnet.co.uk/s/stevebee
      for my musical likes and links to other great sites. 
      Steve Bennett 
      <postal address>
      zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz..COME FRIENDLY BOMBS AND FALL ON-------------------. 
                                       Sir J.B. 
      <phone number>
      
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      Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 22:40:38 +0100
      From: Helen Dinsdale <email address>
      Subject: MV87: Re: Digest: Midnight Voices week 1
      
      At 11:40 07.09.97 +0100, you wrote:
      >Date: Tue, 02 Sep 1997 17:22:49 +0100
      >To: Midnight Voices <email address>
      >From: S J Birkill <email address>
      >Subject: Welcome Message -- again ...
      >
      >Hello everyone,
      
      Hello to all a whole group of people I had no idea existed a few weeks ago.
      I thought I was the only one who still remembered Pete Atkin and cherished
      his LPs. Fortunately Radio 5 Live mentioned Steve's web site and here I am.
      A 40 something female, married and living in West Yorkshire while working as
      an EHO in Blackpool. Bu the way my husband can't stand Pete and reckons I'm
      regressing with my reawakened interest! 
      I first came across Pete whilst baby-sitting as an infant (well almost), my
      hosts had a couple of his LPs. My appetite whetted I collected the rest as
      they came out. I was fortunate enough to see Pete at a couple of pub gigs in
      London and travelled to a folk festival in Charnock Richard at which he starred.
      I'd love it if his albums were reissued on CD. We no longer have a record
      player so my enjoyment of his music is limited to King at Nightfall and some
      of Secret Drinker which I transferred to tape years ago.
      My other interests, nothing much musical. I think I'm more of a visual
      person, maybe it's the fact that Pete/Clive manage to bring such intense
      images to mind that attracted me. I'm currently studying with the OU and
      finding it rather hard going, and am a passionate rugby league fan - of
      Keighley Cougars specifically.
      Looking forward to reading lots morePA info, all the best to you all,
      Helen
      -- 
      Helen Dinsdale
      <email address>
      
      ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 18:39:19 -0400 (EDT)
      From: Ian Chippett <email address>
      Subject: MV88: words and music
      
      I've just been looking at "Secret Drinker" for the first time in a long time.
      Apart from the unusual chord changes which one never comes across in almost
      any other writer, I can't imagine how PA could have fitted the music to an
      existing lyric as the lines are so uneven unless CJ was deliberately
      stretching PA's writing abilities to the limit which is not impossible. I
      reckon that here we have an example of music first, words after. Am I right?
      
      Can anyone tell me what and where the "Sunlight Gate" is? Or the Sunset Gate
      for that matter.
      
      It's true that almost everyone outside France pronounces "Verlaine" so as to
      rhyme with "Train" so it doesn't really matter if CJ does so. I'd forgotten,
      however, that in the same song CJ rhymes "Mouth" with "Earth". Now this is
      not on. If you use eye-rhymes once, then you should continue all the time.
      It's not really poetic license, more a case of inspiration temporarily drying
      up, I reckon. A tiny blemish on an otherwise great song. They don't do it
      very often, though. Can anyone find another example?
      
                                                        All the best
      
                                                                   Ian Chippett
      
      ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      From: Cary <email address>
      Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 11:08:09 +0000
      Subject: MV89: Initialisation of the World
      
      Now call me SOT (slow of thinking) or NABEPAA (not a big enough Pete 
      Atkin Anorak ) but is anyone else having trouble WATA (with all these 
      abbreviations) No? Maybe I'm older than I think!! So, for my benefit 
      and any one else WNI (who needs it) here is ABRG (a brief reference 
      guide) Hope it helps but if not it's made a happy woman very old.
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      DTMA        - Driving Through Mythical America 
      AKAN         - A King at Nightfall 
      TROS          - The Road of Silk 
      SD               - Secret Drinker 
      LL                - Live Libel
      TMOTR        - The Master of the Revels
      TRTTWE     - The Rider to the World's End 
      THAM         - Touch Has A Memory
      TBC             - The Beautiful Changes 
      WTML         - While The Music Lasts 
      TPMO          - The Party's Moving On 
      BOTBS        - Beware of the Beautiful Stranger
      GOAT          - Girl on a Train ( also large fury animals)
       ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~        
                      _/\     /\_
          Cary       a    a
       Like Mary    @ 
          With  a     'C'    for cat
       ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      
      ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 12:09:14 +0100
      From: S J Birkill <email address>
      Subject: MV90: Re: MV89: Initialisation of the World
      
      If I may add another which might have confused some:
      
      WAYDATS    - "What Are You Doing After The Show?" -- TV late-night revue
      series broadcast on LWT in 1970, featuring PA and JC with many chums
      including Maggie Scott and Dai Davies. Luscious arrangements of PA/CJ
      songs, with orchestra. No video recordings survive, though we might dream
      of some nutter having taped the whole series on one of those early
      reel-to-reel helical-scan VTRs, and the tapes lying unrecognised in a dusty
      box in someone's attic -- SJB
      
      ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 18:25:48 +0100
      From: Dave Bondy <email address>
      Subject: MV91: Monyash 98
      
      For what its worth (and I am one of the sad ones who requested a digest
      rather than a daily fix MV hence the delayed response) I would say that
      Monyash 98 should keep the same format as this years' one.
      
      I think it will appeal to a wider audience and (hopefully) get more
      people interested in the music of PA which _should_ result in more
      requests for album re-issues on CD.
      
      The formula was great Steve / Carole and I thought it was brilliant - I
      also loved staying at the Bull's Head.
      
      Keep up the good work.
      
      -- Dave
      
      P.S. Don't forget to re-book Brent for next year also!
      
      ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 23:50:42 +0100
      To: Ian Chippett <email address>
      From: gerald smith <email address>
      Subject: MV92: Your mail
      Cc: Midnight Voices <email address>
      
      Ian
      
              Thanks for your mail earlier to-day.  I believe you did write back
      about the faded mansion, even if it may inadvertantly have been forwarded to
      Alaska!
      
      You raised some interesting points.  I'll answer them as best I can.  In the
      section which you described as the 'chorus' (Between the headlands to the
      sea...etc), the progression isn't really G, Gmaj7, Em.  In my original
      version I had it down as G, Bm, (or more precisely, Bm/F#, ie, Bm in the
      second inversion) , followed by Em.  Perhaps this was slightly short-sighted
      of me.  I had assumed that this section of the song had a tonic centre based
      around G , natural enough, given than G is the opening chord.   In this way,
      the opening line, 'Between the headlands to the sea', would correlate to a
      progression of: I, III, VI (G, Bm, Em). This is tenable, because Bm is the
      Vth of Em, and so thus would form a V-I perfect cadence.  However, I do not
      believe it works this way.  I think it better to assume that the whole of
      this passage, up till...'giant seabirds flying low', is in Em. This is why;
      the oening chord (G) is the relative minor of Em, or, chord VI.  It's quite
      acceptable to combine the two in a progression (although too close a
      juxtaposition  can create a progressional stasis).  So, in other words, he
      starts the 'chorus' in G, moves to a slightly altered dominant of G (Dm6)
      and thence to Em, thus forming the progression I, V, IV; this is the
      semi-colon, a sort of imperfect/interrupted cadence.  The following chord is
      B7. This resolves to Em, thus forming a V-I perfect cadence at the end of
      the line(fleeing yachts of summer go).  It does not really matter that the
      closing chord of that line is E major and not Eminor - that's just a
      chromatic alteration; many of the greatest of composors have indulged in
      this; Schubert in his day, as an early Romantic caused storms as a result of
      his propensity to modulate wildly (in those circles, anyway). 
      
      **
      
      This leads on to what I believe is the crux of the individuality of the
      PA/CJ product, and, not to put too fine a point on it, why the product did
      not achieve the commercial recognition which it merrited. Let's not forget,
      T-Rex, fun as he was and the like were topping the charts. I don't think
      there's any  doubt, CJ in his lyric writing was inspired by the ideals of
      Romanticism. Indeed, there are many references to literature throughout the
      ages.   PA reflected the nuances of this  writing in the sensitive, nay,
      symbiotic, even, way in which he constructed the songs. Just as the Romantic
      composors in varying degrees laid waste the compositional tradions of the
      past, PA and CJ boldly embarked upon the business of writing a song from a
      challenging and unique viewpoint.   I have come to the conclusion, vis a vis
      the 'words before music' debate, that this was indeed a partnership; 50-50.  
      ----------------------------------------
      (The following paragraphs should come after the above, at the point marked
      **.  Sorry, can't get cut and paste to work in email mode)     
      
      So this is why PA uses the Dm6 chord. It forms the basis of an imperfect
      cadence which subsequently confirms the key in Em. Also, the m6 chord has a
      rather emotional, yearning quality about it.  Very appropriate to the lyric.
      Its far more evocative than the Bm chord which I originally suggested. 
      
      All this, basically, is about 'colour', light and dark moods', which weave
      around each other, reflecting the 'bitter/sweet' flavour of the song.     
      
      So, the Dm6 acts as a sort of semi colon in the sentence which travels from
      G to Em. 
      -------------------------------------------
      Anyway, fascinating as this is, I must go to bed before I write an essay -
      duty calls, morning after, etc.
      
      best wishes
      
      
      gerald SMith   
      
      ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 19:04:11 -0400
      From: John Ramsey <email address>
      Subject: MV93: Sunlight Gate.
      
      Re. Sunlight Gate.
      
      As I understand it, the  song is about WW2 daylight bomber crews, as  seen
      from the perspective of a member of the ground crew. The gates in question
      aren't meant to be taken literally, I think that this is just an image of
      the crews as knights riding forth from a castle, and returning in the
      sunset.  I hope this makes sense, and I'm happy to read anyone else's
      interpretation.
      
      On a different subject, I read CJ's article on Diana today - originally
      published in the New Yorker. The Sunday Telegraph carried it today. 
       My reaction is a strong desire to kick CJ's bum repeatedly. It was that
      bad? No, that good. Like most of us, I suspect, I would kill to be able to
      write material as good as the CJ/PA lyrics. My sadness is that the
      Contemporary CJ - that guy on the telly -  is a schlockmeister. Shocked?
      But who, apart from us cognescenti, believes he could ever have been a
      brilliant songwriter? The Diana article proves he can still put his talent
      to good use when he can be bothered.
      
       Midnight Voices must organise a mass campaign to boycot all such offerings
      as CJ on TV and force the errant Mr. James back to serious writing. How
      about it Clive - that headache's our crosswires on your brow!
      
       :  ) as they say,
      John.
       
      ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 13:07:28 +0100
      From: S J Birkill <email address>
      Subject: MV94: One Midnight Voice
      
      Hello everyone.
      
      Quiet, innit?
      
      To break the silence, here are some thoughts from Pete, which he's
      assembled over the past few days in response to your various posts to the
      forum:
      
      BEGIN QUOTE ---------------------------------------------------------------
      
      One of the great things about reading everyone's thoughts (quite apart from
      the delicious danger of having my head turned by all of this attention) is
      the way it has triggered memories of things I wasn't even aware of having
      forgotten, such as --
      
      Re: three-sided knife - By George, I think David L. Jones has got it!   I
      had completely forgotten about the Slaughterhouse 5 reference, but turning
      on that small distant lightbulb gives just enough light to illuminate the
      relevant dark corner of the memory.  I'm sure that's where it came from
      (sure enough to authorise Steve to use it in his forthcoming (ahem)
      annotation), though I'll try to remember to ask Clive when I next speak to
      him just to be certain.   And --
      
      Re: Sunlight Gate - I don't think I ever specifically discussed this with
      Clive, but I think John Ramsey is pretty much on the button, except that I
      have another dim memory from somewhere way back that the "gates" in the
      song, while I'm sure they are of course meant to conjure up an image of
      castles ("ride out" isn't a phrase you would normally apply to bomber
      crews, after all), also refer to a critical morning and evening period
      within which it was vital to depart and to return because of fuel or
      navigation considerations (sort of a window in a time-frame).   In fact, I
      wouldn't be surprised (we really didn't talk about any of this stuff much
      or at all at the time) if the title phrase and the double-image it conjured
      up was where the whole idea for the song came from.   With the benefit of
      this much hindsight - working on a song at a time I'm absolutely certain
      that neither of us was remotely aware of any of this at the time - that
      kind of superimposition of recent and distant past is one of the recurring
      themes in Clive's lyrics, an idea you can find elsewhere - in Last Hill
      perhaps most obviously, but all over the place in individual images as well
      as in whole songs.  I'm sure you could spot more easily than I could.  Over
      to you ... 
      
      I was rivetted by Gerry Smith's account of the tonality of Faded Mansion. 
      I've always maintained, in every kind of context, that the writer or
      artist's own account of his or her own work is probably the least reliable
      of all, and original intentions are of little or no relevance when it comes
      to whether and how it works for any individual reader, listener, spectator.
        I have no objection whatever to this kind of analysis - in fact I'm
      hugely flattered to receive this kind of attention - but do please always
      remember that (certainly in this case) it's an analysis of the finished
      product, not of the process by which it was written.   Apart from school
      violin lessons, I'm musically entirely self-taught, having picked stuff up
      from listening and reading and experimenting, mainly on the piano.  
      Anyway, for what it's worth (which, as I say, may be nothing at all), here
      are a few thoughts about what little I remember of the process of writing
      Faded Mansion — 
      
      The main chorus stanza is basically a 12-bar blues (with some fairly hefty
      alterations as it turned out, of course).   That approach to it came
      directly from the three-line shape of the lyric.  The verse is an AABA
      song-in-itself.   This out-of-tempo-verse/chorus structure is one which, as
      we've often said, came straight from the great TPA songwriters, Rodgers and
      Hart perhaps more even than Cole Porter or the Gershwins (Ten Cents A
      Dance, Spring Is Here, Bewitched Bothered and Bewildered, It Never Entered
      My Mind - almost everything on the Ella Fitzgerald R&H Songbook albums -
      made an enormous impression and lodged themselves very firmly in our
      brains).   But my guess is that they all wrote the verses AFTER they'd
      written the main bit of the song.  In our case, I think I always started
      with the verse as a song in its own right and let the chorus develop from
      it, i.e. rather work backwards and create the verse as a kind of
      introduction.   In Senior Citizens, for instance, the chorus is basically
      exactly the same tune as the verse.    With Mansion, having written the
      verse in basically C minor, and having resolved it into C major, it just
      felt as if it needed to go off somewhere different harmonically, certainly
      into another major key, but somewhere not too remote, and F just happened
      naturally, probably because, I suppose, looking at it now, the verse being
      in C works like a long, extended dominant sequence.
      
      I did (and do) think of the chorus as being in F, even though it resolves
      to D.   It never occurred to me that because the tune ends in D that
      therefore the tune is IN D, and even though the middle eight goes off into
      G (as if it really was in D).  (Have I lost everybody yet?)    Something
      else I was completely unaware of at the time, and which is of doubtful
      relevance to anything at all in any case, each time it comes back to F for
      the start of each chorus stanza, it gets there by a different harmonic
      route.  (C-C7-F, D-C9-F, G-C9-F)    Fascinating or what?   Definitely what,
      I'd guess.
      
      The Voices' thoughts about the words-or-music-first? question have been
      equally fascinating, but for the moment at any rate I think I'd rather
      leave the speculations unanswered, partly because the answer is often more
      complicated than the question, and partly because the facts of the matter
      are probably irrelevant (see above).  If thinking or assuming that either
      words or music came first is a part of the way you hear the song, what's
      the point of telling you otherwise?   Still, I guess it's something we
      might come back to if anyone's interested enough.
      
      Re: 'interesting chord sequences' --- I can honestly say I have never
      started out from or with a chord sequence.  Any interestingness comes from
      the fact that for me the harmonies I hear in my head derive first from the
      melody and second from a perverse desire to avoid anything too obvious.  I
      don't know if that's 'intellectual', but it certainly reflects our (my)
      whole approach to writing songs.   I never saw the point of doing again
      what other people were already doing well.  I suppose that - and the desire
      to let the content dictate the style of each individual song - was what led
      us to be so hard to categorise in the way that the music business (and,
      let's face it, most of the public) seems to require.  I think I was aware
      of it at the time, but unable to do anything about it.  Now I just don't
      care.  I like to flatter myself that it's that very lack of trendiness
      which allows people to listen to the stuff still after all this time.
      
      Reading people's listening lists has been another major fascination, not
      least because although there are lots of crossovers with my own, there are
      lots of major names on my list which haven't appeared at all.  I've said
      before that my favourite stuff includes a lot of things I make a conscious
      effort to stay away from at the risk of simply sounding imitative, and a
      lot of stuff I simply couldn't begin to imitate anyway for all sorts of
      reasons, even though it has often pointed the way to all sorts of other
      possibilities for me.  My list would be long - too long, probably - but
      without even looking along my shelves and as a sort fo random selection
      down the years, and thinking of them mainly as writers, it would start with
      Buddy Holly, moving on to Goffin & King songs (by various), Oscar Brown,
      Jr., Jon Hendricks (via Georgie Fame), not forgetting Anthony Newley along
      the way (who showed it was OK not to sing in an American accent - one I
      think I share with David Bowie), Dylan of course even more than the
      Beatles, John Sebastian (Spoonful), early more than late Joni Mitchell,
      Randy Newman (specially surprised no one has yet mentioned him), Jesse
      Winchester, Robbie Robertson, Wendy Waldman (via early Maria Muldaur),
      Amazing Rhythm Aces, Steely Dan and Donald Fagen, Lyle Lovett, first three
      Hue & Cry albums, and more recently the Crash Test Dummies, the Ben Folds
      Five, the Barenaked Ladies, Shawn Colvin, and Moxy Fruvous - and lots, lots
      more I know I've forgotten right now.   I'd guess all of those offer some
      kind of clue as to what I personally am after, even if it may often be hard
      to see the connection.  Oh, and if you really want to do yourself an
      unexpected favour, check out Trisha Yearwood's version of a Steve Goodman
      song called 'A Lover Is Forever' (CD 'Everybody Knows') - it's worth the
      price of the whole CD, honest.  You'll probably find it in the country
      music section which, judging from most of your lists, is not somewhere you
      probably  find yourselves browsing as a rule.
      
      END QUOTE ----------------------------------------------------------------
      
      Someone suggested I solicit your questions, to put to Pete and Clive. Pete 
      reports he is quite willing to tackle replying to a selection of such, and 
      is optimistic about getting some response from CJ too. Over to you (not all 
      at once now).
      
      Check out some new audio clips of old songs on the Web site, and don't
      forget Charlbury on Saturday! And you are all listening to Martin Jarvis,
      aren't you?
      
      Steve
      
      ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 13:34:35 GMT
      From: email address (Dr Jeremy Walton. <phone number>)
      Subject: MV95: Charlbury
      
      Hi there,
      
      Good to read PA's comments, and the solicitation for further discussion. 
      I'm afraid the only thing I've ever vaguely wondered about their songs
      (and this may have already been addressed elsewhere) is why so many of
      them (particularly the early ones) have an AAAAA...  structure (i.e. all
      verses, no chorus or middle eight).   Some examples include "Girl on the
      train",  "Beware of the beautiful stranger", "Practical Man",
      "Hypertension kid", "Perfect Moments", "Laughing Boy" and, more
      recently, "Canoe".  Naively, I used to think that this was because the
      songs started out as poetry, which has different requirements on
      structure, but reading the remarks about whether the music was written
      at the same time as the words has made me wonder again.  Any insights?
      
      Also, is Pete taking requests for Saturday?  If so, could I say that I'd
      like it a lot if he did "Canoe" and "Senior Citizens".  Thanks very
      much.
      
      Steve: what's Martin Jarvis, and where do we listen to him then, eh?
      
      Cheers,
      
      Jeremy
      
      ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 11:38:25 -0400
      From: John Ramsey <email address>
      Subject: MV96: Mail not displayed
      
      I have only seen MV94 over the course of the last few days - is it the only
      message? i don't know if other readers have seen what Pete, to my pleasure,
      confirms to be correct in my message about "Sunlight Gate". Am I missing
      out on any other messages?
      
      John Ramsey.
      
      ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 09:57:55 PDT
      From: "Jones,David L" <email address>
      Subject: MV97: Yet another intro
      
      OK, everybody else is doing it:
      
      Dave Jones, age 44, ex York University, living some 16 years in the US, married
      to a New Englander with 2 kids. Posseses TROS and SD, wishes he could get
      more.  Lives by being a software mercenary.
      
      Distinctive features: as a youth, he got Pete confused with John Martyn. Quite a
      trick, you might think, but I plead the following: In 1969 Island Records issued the
      sampler "You can all join in" with JM's track "Dusty" from "London Conversation".
      Notwithstanding John's later vocal slurrings, on this track he sounds a lot like Pete!
      Needless to say, at this time record shops in the Frozen North (aka Middlesbrough)
      were not replete with either artist's work, so there was no point of reference.
      
      Until Pete showed up on TV (wasn't it "At last the 1948 Show" ?) doing RTTWE.
      That's the voice! I thought. And he looks just like one of the crowd on the cover
      of the LP (well, he had the same hair and similar facial fuzz).  I had missed the
      credits so I had no cast list to go on, and never managed to catch the show again.
      
      It took a few years and the arrival of the Whistle Test to straighten me out. At least
      I am now a fan of both Pete and John, though having listened to recent JM I'm
      sure I'd be happier seeing Pete live now than John.  John has a bad case of what
      did for Richard Burton, Peter Finch and a host of other creative talents who found
      oblivion in booze.  Thank God for recordings.
      
      Looking forward to SFM releasing Pete's stuff - put me down for a copy!
      
      Dave Jones
      Rochester NY USA (up on the big lake, nowhere near Manhattan).
      
      ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 19:02:24 +0100
      From: S J Birkill <email address>
      Subject: MV98: Lonely Voices: Re MV95,MV96
      
      Sorry guys, I didn't mean to be cryptic --
      
      "You are all listening to Martin Jarvis, aren't you?" means (in the context
      of reminders as requested by Rob in MV12, 3.9.97) "I bet you too made a
      mental note to listen to Pete's latest breakfast-time R4 series mentioned
      in MV7 (3.9.97) and then forgot till it was half-way through."
      
      "Quiet, innit?" means "You've probably been wondering as I have whether the
      channel has gone down and messages aren't getting through. I think it's
      just a temporary hiatus, like those grinds-to-a-halt on the motorway which
      clear up without any cause ever becoming apparent. A symptom of the
      mathematical chaos underlying the affairs of men, perhaps."
      
      I'll try to be clearer in future -- Steve
      
      ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      From: Cary <email address>
      Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 22:06:53 +0000
      Subject: MV99: Questions?
      
      OK - some questions for Pete ("Questions are a burden to others, 
      answers a prison for oneself" - what was that quote from? Answers on 
      a postcard please) I'll try and make them intelligent but if I don't 
      will you all settle for intelligible.
      
      You mentioned at the "evening do " at Monyash that Clives lyrics were 
      becoming more intensely personal as time went on. Did you ever feel 
      with any of the lyrics that you did use that you wanted to explain 
      that "I didn't write these words". Or, if you had felt that you 
      wanted to distance yourself from any lyrics would you have agreed to 
      sing them. Are you/were you able to sing about things that you didn't 
      agree with?
      
      The lack of commercial success has been mentioned with sadness many 
      times. Would you have wanted everything else that might have gone 
      with success? Richard Branson said of Julie that "she simply chose not 
      to be a Superstar" ... would you have chosen to be one?
      
      On the subject of 'Words or Music' - which do you think is most 
      important in creating the mood of the song? Did Clive ever come back 
      to you and say that he felt you'd altered the mood he was hoping to 
      create? To answer my own question I think that the music 'catches' 
      you first and sets the mood. The words then hook you. I think one of 
      the problems with modern life and technology is that we all expect 
      instant gratification. I find that if I listen to a CD I'll tend to 
      skip the tracks that I don't instantly like, and it's usually the 
      music that forms my first judgement. If I'm listening to a tape I'll 
      'put up' with the tracks I don't like and discover some time later 
      that they become my favourite.
      
      And a general question(s) to the 'Voices' from someone who finds the 
      dissection of lyrics interesting but mystifying - does it matter if 
      you don't understand a song as long as you enjoy it? Does it mater if 
      you misunderstand a song. Is there ever any definitive meaning even 
      from the author?
      
      Steve-'One midnight Voice'-was that your tribute to Manly Barrylow? 
      
      Yes you are all right  -  gerroff  -  OK .......I'm gone!!
      
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
            *   Cary   *
      
      (like Mary with a 'C')
      
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      From: "Martin Nail" <email address>
      Subject: MV100: Pete at Islington Folk Club
      Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 21:37:35 +0100
      
      Dear all
      
      Just a reminder that Pete is performing at Islington Folk Club on Thursday
      16th October.  You can find full details of how to get there etc on our Web
      page at:
      http://web.ukonline.co.uk/martin.nail/IFCintro.htm
      
      Obligatory (it would seem) introduction:  I only escape from the
      moderately-prosperous middle-class forties male stereotype by having
      reached the age of fifty. (But apart from the age, this is the
      stereotypical Internet user too, so maybe we have a biased sample here.)
      
      I was introduced to Pete & Clive's songs when I shared a flat with Steve
      Cook, who was the bass player on 'The party's moving on' and 'Beware of the
      beautiful stranger'. That was before 'Beware of the beautiful stranger'
      came out so my first introduction was via 'While the music lasts'  and 'The
      party's moving on'.  I have to admit that the songs of that period remain
      my favourites. I think that this is because I find these songs on whole
      more melodic than many of the later ones, which is important to me as I
      sing unaccompanied.
      
      My other musical tastes don't coincide much with other members of the
      group, being mainly traditional music from various parts of the world (such
      as England) and classical.  I'm surprised to have seen only one mention of
      Tom Lehrer, whose records I seem to remember spending a lot of time
      listening to at University.  
      
      Someone asked why Pete was classified as a folk singer: as a folkie myself,
      I would never have called him one. Musically the influences Pete mentions
      (Rogers and Hart, Cole Porter and the Gershwins) are pretty much closer to
      the mark.  Apart from the usage that calls anyone a folksinger who sings
      with an acoustic guitar, I suspect it's just because Pete has performed a
      fair few folk clubs.  And that in turn is because most clubs have a fairly
      open-minded booking policy, and before the arts centre circuit existed folk
      clubs were one of the few types of venue that booked solo singers.
      
      Which brings me back to Islington; we have been booking Pete on and off for
      some years (though quite a gap since the last one) and I perform songs like
      'Girl on a train', 'Beware of the beautiful stranger' and 'Ballad of an
      upstairs window' there fairly regularly.
      
      Hope to see some members of this list there in October.
      
      Martin Nail
      <email address>
      Internet resources on English folk and traditional music:
      http://web.ukonline.co.uk/martin.nail/Folkmus.htm
      
      ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 13:38:33 PDT
      From: "Jones,David L" <email address>
      Subject: MV101: Certain Atkin-deficient people
      
      Strange to tell, there were those with whom Pete was not
      popular on the college circuit. I speak of college
      administrators and security people.
      
      Was this because of the noise of his performance? Hardly,
      even with the backing band. Mr. Mellow, our Pete.
      
      Was it because of exotic cheroots, used 
      prophylactics and discarded items of intimate apparel
      littering the floor after each concert ?  Not that I noticed.
      
      No, it was that the man just Kept On Playing!  There were
      the Joy Police off to the side just waiting to enforce curfew
      on the horde of unwashed youth, and there was Pete doing
      fourth, fifth and sixth encores!  If I remember right, Langwith
      College, York Univ, either enforced, or threatened to enforce
      a ban on future concerts in the dining room after Pete kept
      going past 11 pm.  There was a kind of sweet dread in
      knowing that the concert was getting into dangerous 
      territory but was much too good to stop.  Such memories.
      
      Dave Jones.
      
      ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 10:25:00 GMT
      From: email address (Dr Jeremy Walton. <phone number>)
      Subject: MV102: Re: MV97: Yet another intro
      
      Hi Dave,
      
      >> It took a few years and the arrival of the Whistle Test to straighten 
      >> me out. At least I am now a fan of both Pete and John, though having
      >> listened to recent JM I'm sure I'd be happier seeing Pete live now than
      >> John.  John has a bad  case of what did for Richard Burton, Peter Finch
      >> and a host of other creative  talents who found oblivion in booze. 
      >> Thank God for recordings.
      
      Good to hear of another JM fan.  I agree he sounds like Pete on his
      earlier records - I recall hearing them for the first time (after having
      been introduced to him via his middle, slurring period) and having to
      check the sleeve several times, as I didn't believe it was the same
      bloke - due to both the clarity of his singing and the acoustic guitar
      chops.  
                                                
      I've seen him several times over the past fifteen years, and some of his
      shows were amongst the best I'd ever experienced.  Sadly however, I'd
      agree with you about his current state - we saw him in Oxford a couple
      of years ago and found it pretty embarassing.  Physically, he appeared
      to be all over the place, although he could still play that gold Les
      Paul as well as ever.  Up till recently, his records were still 
      excellent, although a spate of re-recordings, compilations and live
      albums (on less-impressive labels) have indicated something of a
      downturn in his creativity.  A different path from PA, who appeared to
      have just stopped releasing records while still at the height of his
      powers (and got himself a steady day job as well).  
      
      Cheers,
      
      Jeremy
      
      ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 06:20:07 -0400
      From: John Ramsey <email address>
      Subject: MV103: Water Stair
      
      On the subject of obscure lyrics, I wonder if anyone can tell me what a
      "water stair" as mentioned in "No Dice" is? The verse sounds as if its
      something to do with conquistadores exploring the Andes.
      
      Joh Ramsey
      
      ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 06:06:41 PDT
      From: "Jones,David L" <email address>
      Subject: MV104: A modest proposal
      
      Here in the US there is a phenomenon called John Tesh. Putting his career
      alongside that of Pete Atkin you have to conclude "There ain't no justice".
      
      Starting out as the handsome, boyish co-host of the nightly TV fluff-fest,
      "Entertainment Tonight", John moved on to other things, and has now
      come to represent what Oblivia Neutron-Bomb represented a decade
      ago - the very epitome of calorie-free white-bread artistry.  Most recently
      he attracted attention as a commentator of unparalleled vacuousness
      during US coverage of the Olympics.
      
      But get this - he's also a musician (I use the term loosely).  Sure enough
      his musical output is no more worthy than the rest of him, but it gets a 
      certain audience. In particular his concert video "John Tesh at Red Rock"
      is a fixture during "Pledge Drives" on the Public Television Service.
      
      One week in 12 or so, your local public TV station suspends programming
       for a mixture of pleas for contributions and "specials", such as old 
       recordings
      of concerts by the Grateful Dead, a reunited Eagles, various orchestras,
      and of course, Mr. Tesh, leading his crew from the piano keyboard in
      a natural amphitheatre somewhere in the mountains of Colorado.
      
      Now it occurred to me that if we had, say, 90 minutes of an excellent 
      musician such as Pete Atkin recorded in front of an audience (irrelevant
      audience reaction shots are mandatory here), and offered it to public TV,
      it would serve two purposes: Pete would get a US audience and we would
      get some relief from endless repeats of Tesh/Dead/Eagles, not to mention
      seeing one of our favourite musicians again.
      
      Just a fantasy of mine...
      
      Dave Jones.
      
      ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 14:37:50 +0100
      From: S J Birkill <email address>
      Subject: MV105: Re: MV103: Water Stair
      
      Tough one that, John. it seems to refer to the Mayan burial tradition of
      treasures and human sacrificial victims in the Cenotes or sacred wells
      around Chichen Itza, Mexico, but also to Inca-style ritual human sacrifice
      in the Peruvian Andes (thin air, snow). I haven't found anywhere else where
      both descriptive strands coexist.
      
      -- Steve
      
      ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      From: Benjamin Peterson <email address>
      Date: Thu, 18 Sep 97 15:03:45 +0100
      Subject: MV106: Stairs and Day Jobs
      
           >A different path from PA, who appeared to >have just stopped 
           >releasing records while still at the height of his >powers (and got 
           >himself a steady day job as well).  
           
           Oh aye?  What's his day job?
           
           
           >On the subject of obscure lyrics, I wonder if anyone can tell me what 
           >a "water stair" as mentioned in "No Dice" is? The verse sounds as if 
           >its something to do with conquistadores exploring the Andes.
           
           It's some stairs that lead downward into water, from a ship or an 
           embankment -- HMS Victory is covered in the things.  You use them to 
           get out of the ship and into it's boats.  I'd estimate they're using 
           the sling to lower the gold into the boat, climbing down the stairs 
           into the boat, and then paddling the boat out somewhere to throw the 
           gold overboard into deep water...
           
           ...although WHY they're doing this is another matter.  I've always 
           liked that song though.
           
           On the subject of stairs, am I right in thinking that part of 'Payday 
           Evening' goes '...and the gardens of their heyday in Versailles / and 
           Pompadour's theatre and the stairs'?  What stairs might these be?
           
           
           ----------------------------------------------------------------------
           <email address>
           'Oft him anhaga / are gebideth'
           ----------------------------------------------------------------------
           My opinions have nothing to do with those of my employer, or indeed 
           with reality itself.
           ----------------------------------------------------------------------
      ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      From: Benjamin Peterson <email address>
      Date: Thu, 18 Sep 97 16:06:47 +0100
      Subject: MV107: Question for Pete
           
           But first, an answer...
           
           >OK - some questions for Pete ("Questions are a burden to others, 
           >answers a prison for oneself" - what was that quote from? Answers on 
           >a postcard please) 
           
           From The Prisoner.  Also from the Iron Maiden song 'Back in the 
           Village'.  This is not necessarily an endorsement of Iron Maiden :)
                
           Okay, my question is this:  it seems to me that in the more personal 
           songs (the likes of Girl on a Train, Payday Evening, Hypertension Kid 
           and such) a pretty clear picture emerges of a narrator -- that is, I 
           can imagine one person feeling all those things and I think we get a 
           pretty close view of his personality from the songs.  Let's call him 
           'Laughing Boy'.  Now, the question is, is 'Laughing Boy' Pete, Clive, 
           or both, or is he a conscious invention... or did he just 'happen'?  
           
           Oh, and...
           >does it matter if you don't understand a song as long as you enjoy 
           >it?
           
           Of course not!  That's why my two favourite groups are Blue Oyster 
           Cult and They Might Be Giants!
           
           Benjamin 
           
      ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      From: Cary <email address>
      Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 20:00:14 +0000
      Subject: MV108: Re: MV107: Question for Pete
      
      > >     From The Prisoner.  Also from the Iron Maiden song 'Back in
      > >     the Village'.  This is not necessarily an endorsement of
      > >     Iron Maiden :)
      Correct!! And I forgot to put Iron Maiden on my list of faves. I 
      wonder if they could cover one of Pete's songs. Judas Priest once did 
      a cover of Joan Baez's Diamonds and Rust. I think I'd prefer to hear 
      Iron Maiden do 'I see the Joker'
      
      > >     Oh, and...
      > >     >does it matter if you don't understand a song as long as
      > >     >you enjoy it?
      > >     Of course not!  That's why my two favourite groups are Blue
      > >     Oyster Cult and They Might Be Giants!
      
      A supplement to my own question.... does it matter to the authors?
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
            *   Cary   *
      
      (like Mary with a 'C')
      
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 22:23:37 +0100
      From: Max Murdoch <email address>
      Subject: MV109: Re: MV89: Initialisation of the World
      
      Well said, Cary.
      
      All of these abbreviations remind me too much of CB radio, which is a
      real turn-off.
      
      Max Murdoch
      
      ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 18:42:49 -0400
      From: John Ramsey <email address>
      Subject: MV110: WATER STAIRS
      
      >     It's some stairs that lead downward into water, from a ship or an 
      >     embankment -- HMS Victory is covered in the things.  You use them to 
      >     get out of the ship and into it's boats.  I'd estimate they're using 
      >     the sling to lower the gold into the boat, climbing down the stairs 
      >     into the boat, and then paddling the boat out somewhere to throw the 
      >     gold overboard into deep water...
      
      Hmmm. I've always thought that such things as  you describe are called
      "pilot ladders" or "pilot steps", though there is no law against some
      people calling them "water stairs" as well. 
       I don't feel too close to understanding this, yet.
      
      John.
      
      ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 10:05:42 GMT
      From: email address (Dr Jeremy Walton. <phone number>)
      Subject: MV111: Re: MV106: Stairs and Day Jobs
      
      >     >A different path from PA, who appeared to >have just stopped 
      >     >releasing records while still at the height of his >powers (and got 
      >     >himself a steady day job as well).  
      >     
      >     Oh aye?  What's his day job?
      
      He's a freelance radio producer, and has done some work for BBC Radio
      Bristol (I think).
      
      >     On the subject of stairs, am I right in thinking that part of 'Payday 
      >     Evening' goes '...and the gardens of their heyday in Versailles / and 
      >     Pompadour's theatre and the stairs'?  What stairs might these be?
      
      I always heard that lyric as the "theatre in the stairs" (which is what
      the web page has it as - see http://www.rwt.co.uk/d12.htm).  This always
      struck me as impossibly exotic (the idea of having a whole theatre under
      the stairs!), but when I've visited Versailles, I've never been able to
      find such a thing.  Perhaps I'm misinterpreting it, but I like the
      picture in my head anyway.  
      
      Re: the lyrics / tune dichotomy: my favourite quote is from Frank Zappa:
      "Lyrics are just a trick to get you to listen to music".
      
      Cheers,
      
      Jeremy
      
      ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 08:23:10 -0400 (EDT)
      From: Richard Gibson <email address>
      Subject: MV112: Re: MV104: A modest proposal
      
      David,
      your proposal for exposing America (or at least the part that appreciates the
      Public Broadcasting Systems -PBS- television service) is not that much of a
      fantasy.  You didn't mention Austin City Limits as a future showcase.  I
      think PA' would fit their style perfectly, especially after seeing an
      excellent Leo Kotke (spelling?) set recently on the programme.
      
      I would also suggest National Public Radio -NPR- as an avenue for sharing our
      passion for PA.  I believe they are very accessible and would respond to an
      solicited offer of a taped interview with PA and Steve and CJ and .... plus
      examples of the music.  We could even use the fact that we like minded souls
      have all found a common bond on the web as a hook to catch NPR's interest.
       From the NPR I listen to there is a big interest in the British music recent
      heritage and in creative musical styles.  How about starting a campaign?
      
      To All, 
      I have recently found this forum after 22 years of enjoying PA and CJ's work.
       Fortunately, I've had several albums and the cassette that have lated the
      years, but it saddened me that, on a recent trip to London and a visit to
      Notting Hill Record & Tape Exchange, upon asking whether they had a copy of
      the CD "Touch has a memory" I was directed to the bargain basement.  Alas, no
      luck, but at least they had heard of PA, I was tiring of store after store
      not even recognising the name.
      
      There's not much talk of CJ.  I gained a new appreciation for his work after
      reading his three volumes of memoirs.  The description of his time at
      university and the desire to be a poet reminded me greatly of lyrics I had
      heard from PA.  I can easily imagine CJ's fantasies working overtime as he
      lived "Girl on a Train."  I am sorry he stopped his autobiograhies when he
      did.  I expect his rise to fame and association with PA would make
      fascinating reading.
      
      I have noted others sharing their musical tastes and see many familiar names.
       It was great to see PA pull Shawn Colvin out of his list, I believe she is a
      talented, but underrated musician.  My own list is eclectic to say the least
      and too long to really make much sense.  However, I would offer up Tim
      Buckley as a songwriter of passion and interest and a Californian Bluegrass
      band - Dan Hicks and his Hot Licks - as a band that can put emotion in an
      easily enjoyed song.
      
      Enough for now, more later.
      Regards
      Richard Gibson
      
      ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 13:34:24 GMT
      From: email address (Dr Jeremy Walton. <phone number>)
      Subject: MV113: Re: MV112: Re: MV104: A modest proposal
      
      >> >There's not much talk of CJ.  I gained a new appreciation for his work after
      >> >reading his three volumes of memoirs.  The description of his time at
      >> >university and the desire to be a poet reminded me greatly of lyrics I had
      >> >heard from PA.  I can easily imagine CJ's fantasies working overtime as he
      >> >lived "Girl on a Train."  I am sorry he stopped his autobiograhies when he
      >> >did.  I expect his rise to fame and association with PA would make
      >> >fascinating reading.
      
      I think he plans to continue the autobiography, since (according to the
      blurb on his latest novel) it's the thing he's best known (sic) for.  I
      have everything he's ever written in paperback, and would also recommend
      his literary criticism for its breadth of learning.  In addition, I
      enjoyed his first novel ("Brilliant Creatures") very much, but think his
      collected TV criticism has to be one of the best collection of humorous
      writing ever.  There's a description of a Demis Roussos show that still
      has me laughing out loud, even after all these years.  Don't know how
      well it travels abroad, however.
      
      Cheers,
      
      Jeremy
      
      ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 08:33:59 PDT
      From: "Jones,David L" <email address>
      Subject: MV114 Re: MV112;104: A modest proposal
      
      >David,
      >your proposal for exposing America (or at least the part that appreciates the
      >Public Broadcasting Systems -PBS- television service) is not that much of a
      >fantasy.  You didn't mention Austin City Limits as a future showcase.  I
      >think PA' would fit their style perfectly, especially after seeing an
      >excellent Leo Kotke (spelling?) set recently on the programme.
      >
      
      I thought of Austin City Limits - for our non-expat friends its a 
       concert format
      show recorded in Austin, Texas, and has broadened out from its original
      base of Country & Western.  They showcased a 60-something John Mayall
      earlier this year.  While some of Pete's material would fit, it didn't really strike
      me as being a likely venue.  The artists appearing still tend to be of the
      American traditions: blues, C&W, bluegrass and various crossovers.
      
      >I would also suggest National Public Radio -NPR- as an avenue for sharing our
      >passion for PA. 
      >
      I can just see (I mean hear) Pete doing an "Interview in Concert" for Terry Gross
      on "Fresh Air" (nightly Arts, Lit & Social Issues show produced in Philadelphia,
      for our friends back home).  The CJ connection would be a great hook - even
      after the execrable 'Fame' his name carries weight.
      
      A couple of years ago, NPR did a feature on Moondog - remember him? I actually
      found a CD compilation of both his CBS albums for 10 bucks.  It turns out he went
      to do his street-corner music thing in Hamburg.
      
      >
      >There's not much talk of CJ.  I gained a new appreciation for his work after
      >reading his three volumes of memoirs.  The description of his time at
      >university and the desire to be a poet reminded me greatly of lyrics I had
      >heard from PA.  I can easily imagine CJ's fantasies working overtime as he
      >lived "Girl on a Train."  I am sorry he stopped his autobiograhies when he
      >did.  I expect his rise to fame and association with PA would make
      >fascinating reading.
      >
      As Clive noted, the nearer he got to present time, the less easy it became
      to write about the people around him, because they are still around him.
      He really had to wear the kid gloves writing about Germaine Greer, and even
      then he restricted himself to the 'when we were young and foolish' stuff.
      Maybe he's writing something now to be published in a decade or so - that
      would be better than writing it later. Writers seem to turn into 
       pontificating bores
      after age 65.
      
      Dave J.
      
      ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 09:27:40 PDT
      From: "Jones,David L" <email address>
      Subject: MV115 Re: MV113;112;104: A modest proposal
      
      >>> >There's not much talk of CJ.  I gained a new appreciation for his work
      >
      >In addition, I
      >enjoyed his first novel ("Brilliant Creatures") very much, but think his
      >collected TV criticism has to be one of the best collection of humorous
      >writing ever.  There's a description of a Demis Roussos show that still
      >has me laughing out loud, even after all these years.  Don't know how
      >well it travels abroad, however.
      
      The cover blurb for 'Unreliable Memoirs' vol 1 carries a comment
      to the effect that the book should come with a health warning, since
      you're likely to burst into spasms of uncontrolled laughter, especially
      in public.
      
      Can't say I took to vol 2., but vol 3 more than made up for it.
      
      Dave J.
      
      ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 14:26:44 -0400
      From: Frances Kemmish <email address>
      Subject: MV116: The list itself
      
      Is anyone else having trouble reading and following conversations on the
      list? Double, triple, even quadruple quotes now make it really difficult
      to follow who said what.
      
      Steve, is there some philosophical reason for not using a standard
      mailing list program, or is it a practical or financial one? Cutting out
      that first forwarding of messages would at least remove one generation
      of quote marks.
      
      Just a thought.
      
      Fran
      
      ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 21:08:22 +0100
      From: S J Birkill <email address>
      Subject: MV117 Re: MV116: The list itself
      
      Fran,
      
      I think the only strong reason for not using an automatic list program is
      the fear of chaos induced by all things which "have a mind of their own".
      In too many spheres we find ourselves fighting against the machine, a
      machine which doesn't understand the subtleties of human communication or
      preference and simply doesn't do what we think we're telling it to do. I
      understand that the type of program you refer to can be most frustrating
      for its users, particularly when the less computer-familiar make some small
      error in message formatting, or where a message bounces and gets re-sent to
      the entire group, and so on. I've also had the concern expressed by more
      than one of our 81 users that, since list servers are open to anyone, their
      e-mail addresses will be bombarded with "spam". Some have bitter experience
      of this, and seem to dread large numbers of e-mail messages. Personally
      I've had no prior dealings with lists, but I feel it's my duty to shield MV
      members from such concerns, and provide an intelligent direction to the
      operation, however clumsy it may look to the cyber-sophisticated.
      
      The Web site uses the same philosophy: the information is presented
      straight, with the routing all all links clear and obvious, unlike some of
      the more sophisticated, showy and "cool" places on the Web.
      
      The reason for the first generation of "quotes" is the fact that messages
      are "forwarded" through a separate e-mail program here, rather than
      "redirected". I found that redirection confused some users with early
      versions of CompuServe mail software, resulting in their seeing only
      headers. To do it otherwise would require a "cut and paste" operation on
      every message. Forwarding also means that when posting I can adopt a peer
      position among other members rather than issuing ex cathedra messages from
      MV itself.
      
      The weak reasons are that (1) I am not familiar with the selection,
      operation or installation of such programs, which I believe require
      interface with the ISP, setting file permissions and so on, which, if
      changed, would affect direction of existing e-mail to my family and
      business; (2) I am very busy running my own electronics design company, and
      cannot spare the time to learn (often necessarily by trial and error) a
      great many things that are no doubt quite familiar to Internet
      professionals and amateurs alike -- it is easier and more satisfying to
      devote an hour per day, as a "labour of love" to servicing this exclusive
      "fan club", while ever such effort is appreciated; (3) I believe (I may be
      wrong -- I haven't enquired in detail due to reason 2) that dial-up ISPs
      require an extra subscription to host private mailing lists. Hosting the
      Web site on spare capacity is one thing, but I can hardly demand payment
      from MV members. So not very practical or very financial reasons, just weak
      ones on account of my necessarily limited dedication to the cause.
      
      Are you (or is anyone with lots of time, and/or their own access to
      Internet servers) offering to take over the running of MV? I'm not seeking
      to give it up, but I do take to heart every complaint I receive (or
      perceive), and I do try very hard to please everyone. We'd need to poll
      members before switching to an automated list, as it contradicts the stated
      philosophy, but they may be happy enough ...
      
      Meantime, referring to messages by number could avoid long quoted passages,
      and a FAQ might be helpful (yes, it's on my list to do) -- some of the
      questions coming through suggest their authors haven't explored the Web
      site, or even read earlier messages.
      
      Best Regards
      
      Steve
      
      ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 14:35:34 +0100
      From: gerald smith <email address>
      Subject: MV118 Re: MV 116/7 : Automated or hand made list handling
      
      Hello Everyone
      
      I'm all in favour of anything which retains a vestige of the human touch.
      Steve is right, automated systems do seem to have a mind of their own (my PC
      included !) and speaking from the experience of having been on a couple of
      automated lists, yes, my junk mail quadrupled.
      
      I think there's another reason for keeping the list the way it is though.
      The group itself is quite 'intimate' and most members, as we have seen from
      the many introductions have quite a lot in common, sociologically,
      musically, and other ways too.  We are not dealing with the 'Oasis' fan club
      here, or anything of that ilk, to which an automated mailing system together
      with the inevitable links to vacuous and banal 'cool sites' would be most
      appropriate.  
      
       I seem to remember being mailed by Steve when this list was being set up,
      because I had previously visited the website.  It was said that the list
      would get off the ground if and when 10 members could be elicited. I
      understand that the current membership is 81, an amazing response
      considering how much time has passed since Pete was releasing records,
      appearing on TV or doing larger gigs. I therefore think that the 'closed
      group for free discussion' formula is far more in line with the nature of
      the group.
      
      Going off at a slight tangent here, how will members recognise each other at
      gigs? Should we wear a false moustache and metal rimmed glasses?  Or carry
      some other form of ID as do members of those activity clubs for single
      people which pretend not to be introduction agencies.  Ideas on a postcard!
      
      Best Wishes
      
      Gerry Smith
      
      -------------------------------------------------------------------------
      Web Digest, week 3 (13.09.97, MV86 - 118) ends    | index | prev | next |
      
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