Midnight Voices                      
The discussion forum for fans of Pete Atkin and Clive James,
their works and collaborators on stage, TV, disc and in print.

Web Digest week 13 (24.11.97, MV433 - 460) begins | index | prev | next |
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Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 10:34:34 GMT
From: <email address> (Dr Jeremy Walton. Tel: <phone number>)
Subject: MV433 Re: MV428: Versailles, Winchester

Hi Jenny,

>> In response to MV400 and others, I visited Versailles about 10 years ago
>> and saw what could definitely be described as a theatre under some stairs.
>>  The stairs were outdoors and near the Orangery, but I can't be more
>> specific.   Reference to the guide book bought at the time doesn't help,
>> but we did both think - that's it - the theatre in the stairs.

Thanks for that - I'll look out for it next time I'm there.  

I've been practicing "Payday evening" quite a bit.  Some thoughts:

* The way in which the song opens up in the "Gardens of the heyday"
section is, I think, quite uncanny.  It's the most remarkable
combinations of words (the exotic image brilliantly contrasting with the
squalor and misery of the bar) and music (the big, bright G/C/D
progression) interlocking together.  I was surprised how much of this
feeling apparently comes over from Pete's masterful original into my
weedy straining (it's a bit too high for me, but the chords are so nice
and they won't transcribe easily) and strumming.

* I tried the song out on my friend, who commented that CJ must have
been a pretty depressed person in his day.  Till he'd said that, I'd
always thought of it as being an optimistic song, rather than a sad one,
but I guess that interpretation holds as well.

* One of the things I'm concious of (especially when trying to grab
people's attention by performing them) is that some of the songs are
just a bit too long.  This, coupled with an AAAA... structure (I've
mentioned this before) makes, I think, listening to them something of a
challenge (I don't know if I'll ever have the nerve to do BOTBS in
public).  By contrast, shorter songs like THAM and FATW are jewel-like
(to use Pete's phrase); they're interesting, unusual and leave people
wanting more.  

This isn't intended to be a short vs long type debate (CJ's memorable
comment on his poetry when contrasting his verse epics and his other
poems was "At any length, the aim is brevity") but merely the post-hoc
justification for my leaving out the most unsatisfactorily maudlin verse
about the junkie and his girl who apparently find themselves unable to
care for a broken heart.  Still, as Pete's said: "That's folk music,
folks!"

Cheers,

Jeremy

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Jeremy Walton                                            <email address> |
| The Numerical Algorithms Group Ltd, Oxford, UK       Tel: <phone number> |
|                                                      Fax:   <fax number> |
| IRIS Explorer Center URL:          http://www.nag.co.uk/Welcome_IEC.html |
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==============================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 10:09:03 PST
From: "Jones,David L" <email address>
Subject: MV434: Typos

----------
>To: Midnight Voices <email address>
>From: S J Birkill <email address>
>Subject: Pete Atkin Chronology
>
>Re Dai Davies (Cary, MV427): "Blood and Fire" is the Salvation Army's MOTTO
>- another SFM typo!
>
>-- Steve

How about a "Find the typo" contest. I've got one nobody seems to have spotted
yet, probably because it's somewhere nobody looks too closely (not that us
ageing hippies are good at looking at things close up anyway....).  See who can
be the first to spot it ?

Dave J
Rochester NY.

==============================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 22:18:09 +0000
From: S J Birkill <email address>
Subject: MV435 Re: MV434: Typos

>
>How about a "Find the typo" contest. I've got one nobody seems to have spotted
>yet, probably because it's somewhere nobody looks too closely (not that us
>ageing hippies are good at looking at things close up anyway....).  See who
>can be the first to spot it ?
>
>Dave J
>Rochester NY.
>

Dave,

Got it! But I'm probably unaurthorised to enter, so I'll let someone else
announce this one ...

Steve

==============================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 13:09:56 PST
From: "Jones,David L" <email address>
Subject: MV436: A little light on the Shadow.

For those of us who, like me, are not entirely clear about
the relevance of "El Desdichado" by Gerard de Nerval,
I post the following, gleaned (where else) from the Web

The original French is followed by a translation which
could use improvement, IMHO, like Tomb instead of
Vault.   I'm also catching a hint of Psalm 23 in that line,
but I'll leave the text as I found it.

I'm not exactly sure at what level Clive wanted the
link to be made, but I'll be looking at this for a while,
I think.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
From www.netconnect.net/~sgm/nerval.htm:
-----------------------------------------------------------------
El Desdichado

Je suis le Tenebreux, -le Veuf-, l'inconsole,
Le prince d'Aquitaine a la tour abolie:
Ma seule etoile est morte, -et mon luth constelle 
Porte le Soleil noir de la Melancolie.

Dans la nuit du Tombeau, Toi qui m'a console,
Rends moi le Pausilippe at la mer d'Italie,
La fleur qui plaisait tant a mon coeur desole,
Et la treille ou le Pampre a la Rose s'allie.

Suis je Amour ou Phoebus?... Lusignan ou Biron?
Mon front est rouge encor du baiser de la Reine;
J'ai reve dans la Grotte ou nage la Syrene...

Et j'ai deux fois vainqueur traverse l'Acheron:
Modulant tour a tour sur la lyre d'Orphee
Les soupirs de la Sainte et les cris de la Fee.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am the Dark One, the Widower, the unconsoled,
The prince of Aquitaine whose Tower is abolished:
My sole Star is dead, and my constellated Luth
Bear the Black sun of Melancoly.

In the night of the Vault, You who comforted me,
Surrender me the Pausilippe and the sea of Italy,
The flower which pleased my bleeding heart to much,
And the trellised vine where the Vine Branch allies the Rose.

Am I Love or Phoebus?...Lusignan or Biron?
My forehead is still red from the Queen's kiss;
I have dreamt in the Cave where the Syrene swims...

And I have two times vanquished and been through Archeron:
Modulating in turn on Orpheus's lyre
The whispers from the Saint and the screams from the Fay.

Gerard de Nerval

==============================================================================
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 04:55:24 -0500 (EST)
From: Ian Chippett <email address>
Subject: MV437: Cover versions

Pity about the royalties but one is grateful that at least Pete didn't have
to hear his less talented contemporaries torturing his songs to death. It's
not curious that the songs which have been covered have all been the
relatively straightforward ones (musically that is) like "Girl on a Train" or
"Flowers and the Wine". I'm sure I'm not the only Voice to have thought this
but PA's lack of commercial success can be attributed to the fact that his
songs are just too subtle and well-crafted to catch the ear of the general
public. Take, for example, "The Hypertension Kid". For over 20 years I had
been playing this song to my bedroom mirror completely wrongly. When I saw
the true chords I even thought for a few minutes in my arrogance that Pete
had got it wrong! In fact, where a lesser musician would have settled for the
orthodox chord progression I had been hearing, Pete had gone to the trouble
of writing something far more inventive. When you consider that the words of
this song are so brilliant that they hardly need music to stand up on their
own, it makes it all the sadder that PA never got the fame and fortune he
deserved. 

I heard my 9 year old son who is non-Anglophone BTW singing along in the car
to "Lonesome Levis Lane". He loves "Black Funk Rex" too. Mind you he also
loves the Spice Girls but he'll grow out of that. When I see him asleep in
bed I always think of "The Road of Silk". It's not quite the same when he's
awake as the treehouse tends to leave the peachtree through the greenhouse
roof but what a beautiful song. Has anyone seen the Road of Silk, by the way?
Would it really impress a young kid?

==============================================================================
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 17:49:33 +0000
From: S J Birkill <email address>
Subject: MV438: Light on the stairs

In her biography "Madame de Pompadour", Nancy Mitford tells how Mme P set
up private theatricals at Versailles for the amusement of Louis XV. The
first 'Théâtre des Petits Cabinets' was built in a gallery which led to the
Cabinet des Médailles; it opened in January 1747, held an audience of 14
and staged mostly plays, by Molière ('Tartuffe' was the first production),
La Chaussée, Dufresny, Gresset and others. Pompadour herself was among the
actors.

But a larger theatre was desired. "In 1748, while the Court was away at
Fontainebleau, a theatre was constructed in the well of the Ambassadors'
Staircase which led to the state rooms in the north wing. As this staircase
had to be used twice a year for certain diplomatic functions, as well as
for a procession of the Cordons Bleu (knights of the St. Esprit), the
theatre was made in moveable sections; it could be taken down in fourteen
hours and put up again in twelve. There is a gouache by Cochin of this
little blue and silver theatre; Madame de Pompadour and the Vicomte de
Rohan hold the stage, they are singing in the opera 'Acis et Galatée'"
.....
"The Théâtre des Petits Cabinets lasted for five years, after which it
became too much for Madame de Pompadour and she gave it up. During this
time a total of 122 performances was given of sixty-one different plays,
operas and ballets."

==============================================================================
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 21:01:30 -0800
From: M Powell <email address>
Subject: MV439 Re: MV435; MV434: Typos

> 
> Got it! But I'm probably unaurthorised to enter, so I'll let someone else
> announce this one ...
> 
> Steve


I don't think you are unauthorised to enter but here are two anyway.  I
have assumed that the RCA originals are accurate of course.  This might
not necessarily be correct.

What should have been:

Produced by DON PAUL/Engineered by TOM ALLOM 

on BOTBS

was given by SFM as:

Produced by Tom Allom

Also, what should have been TRACKS 15-25 on DTMA came out as RACKS
15-25.



Mind you, if we are into this level of analysis I can report that our
vinyl copy of BOTBS (release 2 on RCA) renders:

Recorded at Regent Sound 'A' on March 31/April 12 1970 (SFM version)

as:

Recorded at Regent Sound 'A' on March 31/April 1/2 1970 (RCA)

which is more likely.  Not bad for only 3 days in the studio.

Sadly I am too tired after a full day at work to match up the SFM
artiste listing (which is by Artiste/Track) to the RCA listing (which is
by Track/Artiste) to detect any errors.  However I will note that Mr C
James, who once called Kerry Packer something like 'The Man in the
Stocking Mask'. has a mugshot on the RCA records which would qualify for
ten years hard labour in a bank robbery lineup with no further evidence
required.

What surprises me is that SFM has obviously gone to some effort to
transcribe the text on the original record covers but at the same time
has let through some significant mistakes.  I hope that they are more
careful with the next one - AND INCLUDE THE LYRICS!  After all, this is
a one off exercise and if anybody deserves precision in the course of it
then Pete does.

How do we get the collective comments to SFM by the way?  Should we have
a single point of contact?

Mike Powell
aka Mr Mel Powell

==============================================================================
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 11:17:48 PST
From: "Jones,David L" <email address>
Subject: MV440: Getting tangled in the web...

Regarding "El Desdichado", "Shadow and the Widower", "Prince
of Aquitaine"....

More Web searching, this time for "tour abolie" turned up a few good
ones  We have 'www.club.ch/fil/ombres/' which is some kind of Gothic
club. There I found (a) the reference to the Tarot Card featuring
the "Blasted Tower", which I already had on my short list of sources for
this reference, and (b) "Les Desherites" (sorry no acute accents here) which,
per the next item, is a plausible French translation of "El Desdichado".
These two items occurring in the same place may suggest a deeper
connection than just de Nerval's poem.

I also turned up an archived essay on de Nerval from my Alma Mater,
York Uni, which is a mixture of interesting points and ludicrous
word connections...
See 
www.york.ac.uk/student/su/essaybank/english/les_chimeres_poetry_by_nerval

I still don't see where the Prince comes in, though.

==============================================================================
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 14:31:03 PST
From: "Jones,David L" <email address>
Subject: MV441 RE: MV439; MV435; MV434: Typos

For getting comments to SFM, I'd suggest good old snail mail to
the address on the delivery slip, which, in case you don't have it,
I will post tomorrow...

Content of message: More! More! More!

Dave J.

PS to Steve: you definitely got the mispront I was thinking of.
DJ.

==============================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 05:56:54 PST
From: "Jones,David L" <email address>
Subject: MV442 RE: MV441; MV439; MV435; MV434: Typos

>From: "Jones,David L" <email address>
>Subject: RE: MV439 Re: MV435; MV434: Typos
>To: Midnight Voices <email address>
>
>For getting comments to SFM, I'd suggest good old snail mail to
>the address on the delivery slip, which, in case you don't have it,
>I will post tomorrow...

Oops, the slip has Magpie's address. Never mind...

==============================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 07:31:27 PST
From: "Jones,David L" <email address>
Subject: MV443: Annotated BOTBS

The line "Your shadow burned white by invisible fire"
immediately made me think of the 'shadows' on the walls
at Hiroshima. Not the most pleasant thought, but one
that Clive might well have intended...

Dave Jones
Rochester NY.

==============================================================================
From: DangerDon <email address>
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 17:45:42 EST
Subject: MV444: Clive's inspirations?

Steve, I'm truly grateful for having the derivation of 'Pompadours's theatre
in the stairs' explained. Thank you.
Oh, HMV in London's Trocadero came up with the BOTBS/DTMA cd at £12.99 inside
10 days (Tower Records 0, HMV 1).
And the cd reminds me; is anyone else disappointed by Clive's rhyme;
'...and as straight as a three-sided knife/
she got up and walked like a princess away from my life.' ?
I know that the English language is a bit short on -ife rhymes, but what in
Easy Street is a three-sided knife?
Came across a poem the other day by Basil Cairns Dowling called 'In Prison'
and I was immediately reminded of 'Laughing Boy':
'Prisoners and warders - we are all of one blood.
They're much alike, except for a different coat
And a different hat;
And they all seem decent, kindly fellows enough
As they work and chat;
How can it be that men like this have been hanged
By men like that?'

Your with the cure for life,
Don

==============================================================================
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 02:02:33 -0800
From: M Powell <email address>
Subject: MV445 Re: MV442; MV441; MV439; MV435; MV434: Typos

Midnight Voices wrote:
> 
> Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 05:56:54 PST
> From: "Jones,David L" <email address>
> Subject: RE: MV441 RE: MV439; MV435; MV434: Typos
> To: Midnight Voices <email address>
> 
> >From: "Jones,David L" <email address>
> >Subject: RE: MV439 Re: MV435; MV434: Typos
> >To: Midnight Voices <email address>
> >

> Oops, the slip has Magpie's address. Never mind...


I wonder what the close relationship between SFM and Magpie implies - if
anything.  I thought the CD insert was well produced in the technical
sense but I think this project deserves a more careful oversight of the
content of the information since this is going to end up being the
definitive public source.  Does anybody know anybody at either Magpie or
(preferably) SFM?  If so perhaps we can bend an ear or two.  If not then
I think a formal contact needs to take place before too much work takes
place on the next CD ( I hope it is in the pipeline though!)

In response to various other emails about the songs (I think mainly from
David).  I agree entirely that we should not underestimate Pete's
involvement while a lot of effort goes into digging out Clive's lyrical
references.  It seems to me that what Clive wrote is closer to poetry
than to song lyrics, although obviously anybody could argue until the
sun is cool about the difference between these two categories.  Pete's
achievement has been to turn these words into some of the most evocative
songs ever recorded. I do not know of any body of work of this type
which has so succesfully captured in such depth the emotions of
melancholy, loss and regret.  Not only that, he has done so in a way
which enriches life rather than causing depression over what could have
been quite negative themes.   Look at your own collection of
LPs/tapes/CDs - how many were bought when they meant something, however
slight, and have not been played for many years?  How many would you
replace if they were lost?  I know that these records would be top of my
list for replacement if anything were to happen to them.  The songs have
not only avoided the fate of becoming banal with repetition, they have
become stronger and more complex like the finest literature.  No doubt
this is partly a function of our own advancing years and experience but
the songs themselves are the root of this success.

Favourite songs/lines.  A bit lengthy I'm afraid but then this is not
the Spice Girls.  They come as complete verses but then that is the way
this is.  Or is it stanzas.

BOTBS

	You Can't Expect to be Remembered

	You can't expect to be
	Remembered like somebody in a song
	Whose name fits to a string of quavers
	Or last for anything like as long

	Beware of etc

	"You live in a dream and the dream is a cage"
	Said the girl "And the bars nestle closer with age
	Your shadow burned white by invisible fire
	You will learn how it rankles to die of desire
	As you long for the beautiful stranger"
	Said the vanishing beautiful stranger

DTMA

	The Pearl Driller

	If I fly the coop some time
	And take nothing but a grip
	With the few good books that really count
	It's a necessary trip

	Thief in the Night

	The whole song, no particular favourite lines

A King At Nightfall

	A King At Nightfall

	You reach to brush your collar free of straw
	And then you feel the string
	There's light enough for one look at the ring
	And it's lovely but it doesn't mean a thing

	Thirty Year Man

	(Very difficult selection - surely one of the best)

	And along from the darkened and empty tables
	By the covered-up drums and the microphone cables
	At the end of the room the piano glistens
	Like bones at the end of a cave
	And I play a few things while no-one listens
	For an hour alone spells freedom to the slave 

	The Hypertension Kid

	"Your metaphors are murder" said the Kid
	"I know the mood -- give in to it a little
	The man who shatters is the man who's brittle
	Lay off the brakes and steer into the skid

Road of Silk

	Perfect Moments

	A perfect piece of work and almost impossible to extract any part
 	but:

	Perfect moments should redeem the day
	Their teeming richness ought to be enough
	To take the sting out of the other stuff
	A perfect bitch it doesn't work that way

	The Man Who Walked Towards the Music

	I have to say I think this is their worst song and I skip it
 	every time I play the record.

	Payday Evening

	Heartbreaking stuff.

	The lady's calling Time and she is right
	My time has come to find a better way
	A surer way to navigate at night

	The poetic age has had its day

Secret Drinker

	Sessionman's Blues

	I've got the sessionman's blues
	I'm booked up a lifetime ahead
	I get a sessionman's news
	The voice on the blower just said
	They want me to work on the afternoon after I'm dead

	Secret Drinker

	A masterpiece.

	He can make the looming future lose its sting
      Staving off the pressure is a bargain at the price
      Of the magic words that make the angels sing
      The same again, go easy on the ice

Mike Powell

==============================================================================
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 08:58:09 GMT
Subject: MV446: (Fwd) MV444: Clive's inspirations?
From: <email address> (Stephen R Bennett)

Don wrote 
 
> but what in 
>Easy Street is a three-sided 
>knife? 
 
This is an assassins weapon, a knife with a triangular 
cross section, approx. 12mm at the handle and about  
30cm in length. Specifically designed to kill by penetratrating the inter
costal regions of the rib cage,  
Being triangular it resists bending and deflection from the ribs....Oh what
a gory subject to discuss over breakfast.... 
Steve Bennett 
<email address>
<postal address>
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz..COME FRIENDLY BOMBS AND FALL ON-------------------. 
                                 Sir J.B. 
<phone and fax numbers>

==============================================================================
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 08:54:27 +0000
From: S J Birkill <email address>
Subject: MV447 Re: Various MVs -- Pete comments

(On the many references MVs have spotted and explained): "I'm starting to
worry seriously that my future performances (assuming) may be blighted by
an excess of understanding." [But not TOO seriously -- SJB].

(On borrowing vs plagiarism): "Eliot himself borrowed - equally
self-consciously - at least as much as Clive.   Almost everybody did, and
does.  Shakespeare wrote - what? - only one original plot in his entire
output.   What about the references to other movies in everything from "The
Wrong Trousers" to "Reservoir Dogs"?  OK, at some point the line between
'hommage' and plagiarism gets blurry, but for the p-word to apply there has
to be a major element of rip-off, of passing-off, of hoping no one notices;
 I think it's true to say that Clive has always hoped that someone does
notice.   Maybe that's the key to the difference.

(On the beginners' call): "Just to nail that one for the non-theatricals in
the
group, i.e. the majority, I assume:  the beginners' call (plural) is the
summoning from their dressing rooms ("Beginners, please"), either these
days by the stage manager on the Tannoy or previously by an actual knock on
the dressing room door and a call, of the production's beginners - those
who are due onstage at the start of the performance - i.e. it has nothing
whatever to do with 'beginners' = 'neophytes'."

(On covers): "Personally, I'd have put up with the torture of more cover
versions for the sake of the royalties."

(On lobbying): "Far, far better for everyone to write individually to SFM
asking if and when the later albums might appear.  I'm certain that
organised lobbying is counter-productive, whereas even quite a smallish
bunch of diverse individuals could have a disproportionately powerful effect."

(On typos): "I think that's nailed all the typos.  March 1/2 is correct
(not March 12).  3 days in the studio, my eye.  It was three 3-hour
mornings plus a four-hour mixing session!   It was only intended as demos
originally, after all." [see http://www.rwt.co.uk/sessiona.htm -- SJB]

(On obscure appearances): "Yes, that was me miming to an edited version of
Errant Knight on 3-2-1.   Ted Rodgers kindly got my name wrong on the
recording, having been saying it right all through rehearsals.    I was
wearing a chain-mail outfit made of knitted string sprayed with aluminium
paint, pulling a toy horse on wheels.   I admit it, but Dusty Bin and I are
not even good friends.   And yes, I did play the Eric Idle part in the
Python miner's son sketch with both Jones and Palin at that Kite Show in
Cambridge."

(On ballpoints): "Biro was not banned by the BBC.   We used to joke about
it sometimes, since Biro was (is) a registered brandname.   What is true is
that the publishers did check if it was OK to use it in the title and
received the reply that it was provided it was always spelled with a
capital B.  That's why, as you've no doubt noticed, I always sing it with a
capital B."

==============================================================================
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 18:20:33 -0800
From: Elaine Bedell for Clive James
Subject: MV448: (no subject)
 

From: Clive James

     Some of the Midnight Voices have been wondering  why I've been so 
long checking in. There are two main reasons, in ascending order of 
importance. The first is that I'm computer illiterate in a big way. I'm 
writing this in the office on something called a Targa, and the 
word-processor function (right term?) is the only feature of it I can even 
access (right verb?), let alone understand. So it wasn't until Pete told 
me on the telephone (now there's a piece of modern technology I'm 
reasonably comfortable with) that I realised this electronic coffee-house 
existed, and then I had to find someone in my very busy production office 
who knew how hack into it, and then I couldn't justify, bottom-linewise, 
the time he took to do it, let alone justify the time it would have taken 
me to catch up with the information streaming in and out of what sounded 
like the digital equivalent of the Platonic Dialogues. Now I've seen the 
complete print-out, and I get the point.

     The second main reason is that this is Pete's show. As one of the 
Voices has already noted, the lyrics are all too easy to burble on about, 
but what counts is the blend of words and music, and Pete, against the 
inclinations of his own modesty, is the protagonist, numero uno, the head 
honcho, the man in charge. He is the one who did most of the initial work 
and went on to guard our heritage in dark times. Above all, he is the 
performer, and now that the show is back on the road the last thing he 
needs, especially at this crucial stage, is me second-guessing him from 
the wings.

     There are, however, one or two recurring questions that I can 
perhaps answer. It has been flatteringly suggested tht I could organize a 
pro-Atkin "media blitz" if only I got off my behind. Alas, not so. It 
isn't within my powers to ring up media outlets and suggest to them that 
I might plug something, especially when another name besides mine is the 
main talking-point. Plugging, in the mass media, works by invitation 
only. During the catastrophic anti-marketing campaign for (against?) the 
THAM CD, I received some invitations to speak about it on radio, which I 
accepted, and did the best I could. With this new and welcome 
double-album re-release --- which thanks to the enthusiasm, dedication 
and intelligence of our new friends actually looks like an item to be 
cherished instead of deleted immediately --- I will certainly decline no 
media invitation that I receive, and would even risk talking to the 
press, although it has become increasingly hard, even with the 
broadsheets, to get a journalist to stick to the subject and not try for 
a general profile. (An agreement made with the editor, even in writing, 
is not always transmitted to the journalist, who starts off with the 
standard stuff about Margarita Pracatan but goes on to fish around in my 
private life, almost invariably with demoralising results.) As for my own 
television shows, be assured that it is not contractually or ethically 
possible for me to plug any of my own products on them, by whatever 
subterfuge. Would that I could: when I've got a new novel or book of 
essays out there dying the death for lack of promotion, nothing would 
please me more than to tell Joanna Lumley about it with eight million 
people watching --- but it doesn't work like that.

     Meanwhile the Midnight Voices are obviously all set to propagate 
themselves like a nest of unusually nice aliens. Having read the 
transcripts, I think the best I can do is to stay out of all questions of 
general interpretation, except to say how flattered I am to be thought so 
deep. On specific points of factual reference, it is fascinating to see 
how the Midnight Voices keep on coming up with the right answers. Yes, it 
was Tolstoy's Natasha at the ball. Yes, Pompadour did have a little 
theatre under the stairs at Versailles. Yes, the Inca gold in No Dice was 
sunk in the lake to save it from the Spaniards. Sometimes I have 
forgotten the sources myself, so I can't help much with Luria Cantrell, 
except to say that a search of the Raymond Chandler web-site, if such a 
thing exists, will probably turn her up. There is no reason why every 
such reference shouldn't be tracked down eventually, although every 
reason on my part to be delighted that anyone should care. 

      On the point of borrowed lines from literature, however, the matter 
is more complicated. I am sorry that even a few of the Midnight Voices 
should be miffed to find me doing so much quoting. It reminds me of how 
Louis MacNeice was disappointed (or said he was disappointed) to 
discover, in the course of his further reading, that so many of his 
favourite lines from T.S.Eliot were written by other people. 
(Incidentally, Mel Powell, you've been right every time about my raids on 
T.S.Eliot, although I hope you've noticed that in most cases I 
puritanically confined myself  to hijacking stuff that he knocked off in 
the first place.) Yes, I would lift anything from a short phrase to a long 
line. (The phrase "the beautiful changes" is the title poem of an 
exquisite slim volume by Richard Wilbur; "the trophies of my lovers gone" 
is from Keats; it was in Garcia Lorca's pocket that the silver coins died 
for envy of the moon; and so on indefinitely ---indefinitely because 
sometimes I can't remember.) But I always tried to make a point of hiding 
 the stolen goods in plain sight, as if saving the past was one of the 
things I was trying to do.

      I still try to do that in whatever I write, because one of my 
impulses -- principles, if you like, although it might see like a lack of 
principle to the purist -- is to get language from anywhere it lives, 
which includes the library shelves. Most of the language in any of my 
song lyrics, however, doesn't come from literature. It comes from areas 
of life that literature doesn't usually touch on, and when the Midnight 
Voices argue over the origin of a phrase, sometimes the origin is a 
parallel universe where they haven't been, so they haven't heard it; but 
if they had been there, they couldn't have missed it. Most people, for 
example, have been to the theatre, but very few have ever been back 
stage. For anyone who has, none of the stage-manager's calls on the 
intercom down to the dressing rooms is more familiar or more frightening 
than "Beginners, please".  The MV speculations about the meaning of "the 
beginners call" were enough on their own to convince me all over again 
that if living language is transferred from one context to another, some 
of its resonance will come with it, even if  the result sounds strange, 
homeless and lost -- which I suppose is how a lot of my work does sound, 
but we are not in business to escape our fate, only to civilize it by 
giving it a voice. That one of the midnight voices of my own fate should 
be the music of Pete Atkin continues to rank high among the blessings of 
my life, and on my behalf as well as his I bless you all for your 
attention.

              Clive James

==============================================================================
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 14:12:34 -0500 (EST)
From: Elphinking (Rob King <email address>)
Subject: MV449 Re: MV444: Clive's inspirations?

I do hope we're not going to start going round in circles...we've already had
the three-sided knife debate...and as for the 'first call - last call'
business, I hope I'm not the only one finding it tiresome, especially as the
meaning is so obvious.

==============================================================================
From: Neil Lovelock <email address>
Subject: MV450: Clive's alive!!
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 16:29:00 -0500

Nice to hear from Clive James and get his comments on the "Voices".
Also very nice of him to say that Pete was the leader.  We all knew that
anyway, didn't we Pete?  wink wink, nudge nudge.

==============================================================================
From: Elphinking <email address>
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 17:53:13 EST
Subject: MV451 Re: MV448: [from Clive James] (no subject)

Just when I thought and feared this group had run its course and was
beginnignto wind its way up its own back passage, lo and behold there came
from heaven The Other Voice and it said, "For your patience I will reward you
with explanations...." and lo, I believed again.
It truly is wonderful that CJ has finally appeared, deus ex machina, to solve
all our arguments....more maestro please!

==============================================================================
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 18:29:00 -0500 (EST)
From: DangerDon<email address>
Subject: MV452: Rapped knuckles

Sorry to be the dullard who re-asked the 'three-sided knife' question, but
some of us presumably arrived at the MV website after others and missed the
early messages.
If the site continues to attract new devotees, no doubt this will happen time
and time again, and time again.

Coincidentally,  there's a scene in the recent film 'Face/Off' with John
Travolta and Nicholas Cage, which features a weird-looking knife which the
recipient is advised to plunge in and twist 'so the wound won't heal'.
Presumably a variation on the original...

And whilst I'm here, did sales of the original DTMA album suffer from the
sleeve artwork? On the new CD, Pete Doyle is credited with the art direction,
(but not on the original sleeve). Do any voices know who was the actual 'artist'?
By 1974 the much better 'Secret Drinker' sleeve is credited to Pat Doyle, so
perhaps the two did the artwork after all.

Thank you Clive for the fascinating ( and, natch, well-written) message.

Finally, in the Favourite Lines Stakes: in the loft somewhere, under an
accumulating layer of dust, there's a frame in which lies, painstakingly
assembled from 1975 Letraset, the single line ' i am the sleep of which you
are the dream' , which I made for my wife.
Yours, still married,
Don

==============================================================================
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 23:02:15 +0000
From: Ian Sorensen <email address>
Subject: MV453 Re: MV414

Hello for the first time.

I'm one of the few who take MV as a weekly digest, so apologies if the
dicussion has moved on - I won't find out until Sunday.

While I've been delighted by the discussions of lyric meanings I have been
waiting for someone else to mention the music, which David L Jones did in
MV414. However, he seemed more appreciative of the perfomance than the
actual musical structure, which is my favourite topic.

I first heard Pete's music in the TV show "What Are You Doing After the
Show" and was instantly struck by the chord sequences he used. I play by
ear and can usually "feel" chords forming in my head as I listen to music.
This didn't happen with songs like "Girl on the Train", and when I tracked
down the album I had the thrill of sitting down and having to work out the
chords - something I hadn't had to do with the pop tunes of the day I
played normally.

Pete has obviously decided to eschew the normal 3 or 4 chord sequences used
in most pop and rock and makes unusual leaps, from C major to E flat for
example. The amazing thing is how natural he makes it sound, normally such
a change jars the ear which is expecting the "usual" F, G or A minor.

My particular favourite audacious chord sequence is "Lady of a Day" where
he makes the hitherto unheard of leap from F major to B major. This used to
upset my father (also a musician) who called it musical blasphemy!

Any other Voices who got int PA because of the chords?

I noticed that the web page has some chords added to lyrics. If there are
any more that are required I'll volunteer to help as it will give me an
excuse to sit down and spend a happy time playing along and working them
out.

Nice to meet you all,


Ian Sorensen

==============================================================================
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 01:10:30 -0800
From: M Powell <email address>
Subject: MV454 Re: MV451; MV448: [from Clive James] (no subject)

MV448 Imagine my surprise to see an email from Clive when I did a quick
check at about 11pm on Thursday night.  I think it is fair to raise the
question again about media support for the re-released CDs.  Perhaps it
is best to try to get SFM to sort out the next two before anything else
happens but on the other hand it might be worth thinking about the
crucial seventh record of unreleased songs as a leg up for the
re-releases.  What could be a better advertisement for the entire thing
than media reports that the long lost partnership of PA and CJ are
working on the new release?  And I would not want to put anybody in a
difficult position over this (being cheeky here) but surely Clive can
help in some direct way with what Pete is trying to do now.

MV451 It is surely a mistake to worry about the group disappearing up
its own fundament when the fundamental issues have obviously just been
penetrated.

Roll on the next record.  A letter to SFM will be on its way from here
this weekend.

Mike Powell

==============================================================================
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 10:38:52 +0000
From: S J Birkill <email address>
Subject: MV455: Monyash Festival recordings now available

Further to MV239 and MV362: Thank you for being so patient. We're now ready
at Monyash Festival to take your money!

I've been through your e-mails and counted up MV commitments for 47 double
CDs and 31 videotapes. The single CD Pete Atkin highlights option was
rejected as unpopular. Three MVs have requested videos in the NTSC (North
American) standard. I'm also mailing today everyone who booked this year's
festival tickets but isn't an MV member. Also the handful of ex-MVs. This
should bring in a few more orders. We haven't yet completed the planned CD
of selected support artists.

The CD is a double album of all the songs in Pete and Julie's set, minus
the links. That's 31 songs, a running time of 1 hour 52 minutes approx.
Price £16.99, including postage and packing.

The VT is a PAL VHS tape of the entire Pete and Julie set, including links,
with a total running time of 2 hours 35 minutes approx.
Price £12.99, including postage and packing.

If you'd prefer the NTSC tape, please await a further announcement.

Send your cheques (to "Monyash Festival") with order to: 
<postal address>.
Please allow 2 weeks for order processing and delivery.
As before, proceeds will go to the local village charity.

==============================================================================
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 08:48:54 PST
From: "Jones,David L" <email address>
Subject: MV456: Ouch!

The above was my response to the line in "Tonight your love is over"

"Ce n'est pas magnifique, mais c'est la guerre".

It is, of course, a play on "C'est magnifique, mais ce n'est pas la gare",
which was Marechal Ney's comment on seeing Waterloo station (at least
that's what Messrs. Sellars and Yeatman told me...)

Dave J.

Quote of the week: "This is lovely music" - my 6-year-old son, on hearing
"Master of the Revels".

==============================================================================
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 16:50:33 +0000
From: Gerald Smith <email address>
Subject: MV457 Re.MV453 - Chords

Hello All

	In common with Ian Sorensen probably many others, I too was attracted to
the PA/CJ product principally by Pete's compositional style, voice and
treatment of Clive's lyrics, although it has been fascinating indeed to sit
in on the various debates on MV about Clive's sources and reference points.
 Arcane or what?!

Much has already been written by the group about the wonderful 'symbiosis'
of words and music which make the product so unique, so I will confine this
to commenting on a couple of specific points which Ian Sorensen raised in
MV453.

Pete's chord sequences are indeed idiosyncratic, being (usually) very
'un-diatonic', ie  he does not confine himself to a clearly definable key
centre or employ the usual techniques of modulation.  Examples which spring
to mind are the excellent 'Secret Drinker' where the diatonically unstable
chord progression seems to reflect the peaks and troughs of the secret
drinker's drunken trip on a barstool.  Similarly, in 'The Double Agent',
unduobtedly one of my favourites, although loosely centred on F Major in
that the principle phrases in each verse begin and end on F, the
progression is maverick from any diatonic point of view : F, Ab, C, Eb,
Dm7, C, Gm7, C7 and back to F.  I believe this is because Pete allows the
melody to dictate the harmony, rather than the more usual practice of
deriving a melody from a more diatonic underlying harmony, eg Blues riffs
and the main body of Rock music, all of which employ rather boring primary
dominant chord relationships.  

Ian mentions 'Lady of a Day' in which Pete makes the incongruous shift from
F to B.  Usually such a shift would sound particulary unpleasant because
the interval in question is a tritone and is generally avoided, or if used,
immediately resolved to relieve the harmonic tension it creates.(If anyone
has an electronic keyboard, try selecting a high string sound and then hold
down the notes F & B together.  It creates immediate suspense. )  However,
in this particular song, the chord progression far from being wayward, is
acually very strict.  Pete has written the song on the degrees of the whole
tone scale, starting on C# (it is in fact only possible to derive two whole
scales whose notes are mutually exclusive; C and C#). The degrees of the
whole tone scale are each separated by a whole tone or two semitones unlike
the major scale where the 3rd and 4th, and 7th and octave are separated by
a semitone.  The whole tone scale gives a sense of floating and drifting as
it lacks a centre, all its degrees being equidistant.It was a technique
often used by Debussy and other post romantic/impressionist musicians.  Ian
says that his father described the progression in 'Lady' as 'musical
blasphemy'.  He was half right - in traditional diatonic harmony F-B is
indeed so, but in a whole tone context it is entirely acceptable.  

Anyway that's enough ranting about music theory.  It was a nice surprise
when I got back from the pub last night to see Clive had finally made an
appearence, although I suspect, reading between the lines, it will be a
cameo. Any other opinions?

Gerry Smith 

==============================================================================
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 12:49:53 PST
From: "Jones,David L" <email address>
Subject: MV458 RE: MV455: Monyash Festival recordings now available

Thanks for the notification, Steve.  I don't think you're going to be
able to handle check (sorry cheque) orders from the US.  The
processing costs, per advice to me from another MV, are quite
high.  I can use UK relatives as a conduit.  Other MV's on this
side of the pond (and beyond ! ) may have to make other
arrangements.

Dave J.
Rochester NY
(who can't seem to get "Rider to the World's End" out of his
head right now).

==============================================================================
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 17:59:12 -0500
From: Frances Kemmish <email address>
Subject: MV459 Re: MV456: Ouch!

> Quote of the week: "This is lovely music" - my 6-year-old son, on hearing
> "Master of the Revels".
> 

I played this song for an American friend. He said, "Is this some kind
of Barney music?". Some people just have no taste!

For those of you spared the Barney phenomenon, it is a purple
dinosaur(TV variety, of such saccharine sweetness, that anyone over the
age of two is reduced to nausea by his appearance.

Fran

==============================================================================
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 16:35:34 +0000
From: Christine Guilfoyle <email address>
Subject: MV460 Re: MV447 Re: Various MVs -- Pete comments

In message <email address>,
Midnight Voices <email address> writes
>Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 08:54:27 +0000
>To: Midnight Voices <email address>
>From: S J Birkill <email address>
>Subject: Re: Various MVs -- Pete comments
>
[clip]
>
>(On obscure appearances): "Yes, that was me miming to an edited version of
>Errant Knight on 3-2-1.   Ted Rodgers kindly got my name wrong on the
>recording, having been saying it right all through rehearsals.    I was
>wearing a chain-mail outfit made of knitted string sprayed with aluminium
>paint, pulling a toy horse on wheels.   I admit it, but Dusty Bin and I are
>not even good friends.   And yes, I did play the Eric Idle part in the
>Python miner's son sketch with both Jones and Palin at that Kite Show in
>Cambridge."
>

-- Glad to hear that Christine wasn't hallucinating Pete's appearance on 3-2-1!
One other recent sighting/hearing to add to the list, which (to those of us who
are terminally optimistic) may suggest that the new Pete Atkin bandwagon is
beginning to roll. My (Mike's) parents, who learned to love Pete's music when i
played the records incessantly as a teenager 20 years or so ago, tell me that
when they were out Christmas shopping in Nottingham's Victoria Centre a couple
of weeks back, one of the shops was playing a compilation tape of background
music which included 'Driving Through Mythical America'! What next - an easy
listening version of 'The Hypertension Kid' for playing in the lift?

Mike Walters/Christine Guilfoyle

PS. Good to hear about the CD/video - our cheque, as they say, is in the post!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
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The discussion forum for fans of Pete Atkin and Clive James,
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Midnight Voices