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Pete Atkin >> Words >> Lakeside
(Message started by: phil_smith on Today at 23:23)

Title: Lakeside
Post by phil_smith on Today at 23:23
Don't know whether I'm posting this in an appropriate place [new user of the refashioned site], but can I ask if the Lakeside double set includes lyrics in the accompanying booklet?

Title: Re: Lakeside
Post by Jan on 18.05.09 at 01:25
Hi Phil,
Don't know about the double set but the Lakeside CDs I have did not include the lyrics. If you have an hour or three to spare there are some do it yourself instructions and the relevant pdfs for two separate booklets at:
http://www.peteatkin.com/How_to_Make_Your_Lakeside_Lyrics_Booklets.htm
Hours of fun.
In fact I was looking at one of the Lakeside CDs this evening. Gregory's Girl was on TV. The music was credited to one Colin Tully and the name sounded familiar ...

Jan

Title: Re: Lakeside
Post by phil_smith on 18.05.09 at 20:13
Yes,thanks for that, I was specifically asking about the double, 'cos it's convenient to have the lyrics already in the cd. Lazy I know, but the reissued cds have been done so well, I will probably get them just for the sleeve notes. And I thought Elvis Costello was a hypocritical bastard for the increasingly revamped reissues at fans' expense. Probably nothing to do with him personally, or not? Anyway, no taint on Pete or Clive.
A propos, back in the rickety world of the old e-mail system for this site, I was once reckless enough to state that "All The Dead Were Strangers" was one of the best [implicitly] anti-war songs I had ever heard in its ability to move between specifics and a general sweep. Never had any feedback! Regards, Phil

Title: Re: Lakeside
Post by Seán Kelly on 18.05.09 at 20:29

on 05/18/09 at 20:13:28, phil_smith wrote :
A propos, back in the rickety world of the old e-mail system for this site, I was once reckless enough to state that "All The Dead Were Strangers" was one of the best [implicitly] anti-war songs I had ever heard in its ability to move between specifics and a general sweep. Never had any feedback! Regards, Phil


No feedback?  I should take that as everyone's way of saying you were spot on Phil!

Title: Re: Lakeside
Post by Pete Atkin on 19.05.09 at 09:15
Hi Phil - Sorry about the lack of lyrics on The Lakeside Sessions, but that was mainly - almost entirely - down to cost.  I forget now how much more it would have cost to include them, but it was enough to increase the personal financial risk beyond an acceptable level.  As it turned out I overestimated the potential sales anyway.  I presumptuously guessed that most of the people on the old Midnight Voices mailing list would buy a copy, but I was seriously wrong about that, and even now I am some way short of covering my costs on it, even without a lyrics booklet.   (The small part of the decision that wasn't down to cost was due to the fact that Clive and I both prefer that people primarily listen to the song rather than read it;  and the lyrics have in any case always been available on the website, thanks to that nice Mr Birkill.)
    And as far as the business of added-value reissues is concerned, I have mentioned elsewhere (in the main Demon thread, I think) our awareness of the progressive-reissuing dilemma.  But asking Demon to restrict the packaging to no more than what See For Miles had done in order not to seem to be trying to sell the same material again to the same people would be a kind of madness, wouldn't it?   SFM did as thorough a job as they felt was commercially realistic in the process of making the material available on CD mostly for the first time.  Then Demon (and most specifically the entirely admirable Val Jennings) came along and paid us the compliment of investing in as comprehensive a job as possible, mainly in hopes of making an extra appeal to those who had not bought the previous reissues.  I'm truly sorry to have to say that attempting to sell the same stuff over and over again to the same people makes almost no numerical or commercial sense in my case, unlike in the case of, say, the Beatles' fans.   The Demon job is so very comprehensive that it's hard - impossible, even - to imagine how any further reissue could ever top it, so anybody holding back on getting their hands on these for that sort of reason would be best advised not to, in my opinion.
     It may be worth repeating once again the fact that I do not own and control the 1970s recordings, and while Clive and I have been delighted to cooperate in any way we can with Val and Demon, they in practice had no obligation even to ask us whether, let alone how, to reissue them.

Title: Re: Lakeside
Post by Richard Bleksley on 19.05.09 at 10:04

on 05/18/09 at 20:29:31, Seán Kelly wrote :
No feedback?  I should take that as everyone's way of saying you were spot on Phil!


I agree entirely with Seán, Phil.  I've always thought All the Dead... was a brilliant song, subtle but spot-on with its message, which I beleive is that the atrocities (and the heroics) of war are committed in the main by perfectly ordinary people under extraordinary stress.

I had the privilege of being present on one of the very rare occasions Pete has sung it live since the revival, at Eastbourne a few years back.

Title: Re: Lakeside
Post by Ian Chippett on 19.05.09 at 12:12
Does anyone know where the title of All The Dead Were Strangers came from, always assuming Clive borrowed it as is his wont? I had a brief Google and found it's the title of a novel by Ethan Black which everybody must know already except me. Did he nick it from Clive I wonder or did they both nick it from a third party?

I agree it's a great song but I've never put it among my PA Top Twenty. Maybe it's the repetition of "all the dead were..." which bothers me though I don't see why it should.

Ian C

Title: Re: Lakeside
Post by Kevin Cryan on 19.05.09 at 22:00

on 05/19/09 at 12:12:47, Ian Chippett wrote :
Does anyone know where the title of All The Dead Were Strangers came from, always assuming Clive borrowed it as is his wont? .........

Ian C


Just so that we don’t (as we say my country) “lose the run of ourselves”, it should be noted  that an episode of the seventh season of the long-running American TV detective series Mannix (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mannix) was titled All the Dead Were Strangers It’s unlikely that Clive got the idea there since the first broadcast date I can find for that episode is December 16, 1973.

One  untested theory I have is that Genisis 23:4 - "I am a stranger and a sojourner with you: give me a possession of a  buryingplace with you, that I may bury my dead out of my sight" - may very well have been Clive's starting point.

Another is that is that the line crops up in a long-forgotten film film noir (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Film_noir), but each time I test that theory, I draw a blank.

Kevin Cryan

Title: Re: Lakeside
Post by Jan on 19.05.09 at 23:47
I think I might have found something useful. A James Cagney film from 1951  
Come fill the cup (http://movieclassics.wordpress.com/2008/10/21/come-fill-the-cup-1951/)
It does tend to give a bit of the plot away!
Jan

Title: Re: Lakeside
Post by Keith Busby on 20.05.09 at 01:58
Well done, Jan. Ian C. will buy you a drink next time you're in Paris.

Title: Re: Lakeside
Post by Kevin Cryan on 20.05.09 at 07:33

on 05/19/09 at 23:47:24, Jan wrote :
I think I might have found something useful. A James Cagney film from 1951  
Come fill the cup (http://movieclassics.wordpress.com/2008/10/21/come-fill-the-cup-1951/)
It does tend to give a bit of the plot away!
Jan


And guess what? Ben Roberts (http://www.jmannix.net/roberts.htm), the writer of Come fill the cup (http://movieclassics.wordpress.com/2008/10/21/come-fill-the-cup-1951/) - wrote regularly for Cagney incidentally - was one of the many writer/producers who worked on the the TV series Mannix (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mannix).  If one searched long enough, one would in all probability find he wrote or co-wrote the episode I mentioned.  

Kevin Cryan

Title: Re: Lakeside
Post by Jan on 20.05.09 at 19:41
I think you're probably right there Kevin. Having written a good line it must have been very tempting to re-cycle it in a more prominent manner. And of course Clive knows a good line when he hears/reads one, wasn't there something about turning a phrase to catch the light?
Jan

Title: Re: Lakeside
Post by Rob Spence on 20.05.09 at 21:04
That's nailed that one! How satisfying to find the source of that mysteriously evocative line. Well done chaps!

Title: Re: Lakeside
Post by Kevin Cryan on 20.05.09 at 21:10

on 05/20/09 at 19:41:21, Jan wrote :
I ..... Having written a good line it must have been very tempting to re-cycle it in a more prominent manner. ..........
Jan


Or to give it to another writer to recycle, as seems to have been what happened in this case. The writer of the Mannix episode, as it turns out, was one Karl Tunberg (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0876562/) who did quite a lot of  TV journeywork and who had a movie writing career that would not, even by the most generous among us, be called distinguished.  

His best big screen work, which includes an early Alan Ladd vehicle, Lucky Jordan, which he co-wrote and Count Your Blessings, a rather lacklustre adaptation of Nancy Mitford (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nancy_Mitford)'s 1951 novel The The Blessing starring Deborah Kerr for which he usually gets sole script credit, was solid enough for the studios to keep him in work for over four decades but never much more than that.


Kevin Cryan

Title: Re: Lakeside
Post by phil_smith on 21.05.09 at 00:29
Such learned feedback! Thanks to everyone, particularly the diligent and unfailingly courteous Mr  Atkin, for explaining some of the background issues. And what a bummer that sales of Lakeside have been underwhelming!
Was I unfair to Mr McManus? I'm sure many must have lost the will to live by the time of the THIRD, increasingly augmented, reissue programme!
Totally unrelated, I seem to recall that when interviewing Pete for the York University campus newspaper in the early 70s, we were agreed on a "Great Gatsby" element to "Where Have They All Gone".

Title: Re: Lakeside
Post by Keith Busby on 21.05.09 at 00:56
Cripes, Phil, that must have been the time I saw Pete in York.

Keith (grad. student, Wentworth, 1973-1976)

Title: Re: Lakeside
Post by Kevin Cryan on 21.05.09 at 10:25

on 05/19/09 at 22:00:10, Kevin Cryan wrote :
.............
Another is that is that the line crops up in a long-forgotten film noir (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Film_noir), but each time I test that theory, I draw a blank.

Kevin Cryan


The film film noir (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Film_noir) that was at the back of my mind was not a long-forgotten one, but one of the classics of the genre.

In Raymond Chandler (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raymond_Chandler)'s screenplay for George Marshall's The Blue Dahlia (1946),  returning war veteran Johnny Morrison (Alan Ladd) finds gangster Eddie Harwood (Howard Da Silva) and others partying at his wife's house. He realises that Harwood is one the many his wife has been playing around with while he's been away. He punches Harwood,  leaves in a  rage and is picked up by a blonde (Veronica Lake), in a convertible.

The dialogue runs:

Johnny:  You oughta have more sense than to take chances with strangers like this

Blonde: It's funny, but practically all the people I know were strangers when I met them.


http://cache-media.britannica.com//eb-media/21/90521-004-78CE6A14.jpg
Alan Ladd and Veronica Lake in The Blue Dahlia (1946), directed by George Marshall and written by Raymond Chandler.
© 1946 Paramount Pictures Corporation; photograph from a private collection. ( www.britannica.com entry (http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic-art/105426/97269/Alan-Ladd-and-Veronica-Lake-in-The-Blue-Dahlia-written))



Kevin Cryan

Title: Re: Lakeside
Post by Rob Spence on 21.05.09 at 16:32
Can't resist rerunning that ancient gag:
-Where are you going for your holiday?
-I'm spending a week on Veronica Lake...

..well, this thread is Lakeside :)

Title: Re: Lakeside
Post by phil_smith on 21.05.09 at 19:40
Keith,
        Langworth college as I recall! I was much happier chatting to Pete than listening to Al Stewart, who at the time spent several hours telling us all he knew about Nostradamus, before singing a long song giving exactly the same information! Would hazard a guess at '72/'73.
But here is the theme for your forthcoming book, Pete. Reminiscence therapy for all those aged people who liked you then and continue to do so! Takes a burden off the state!

Title: Re: Lakeside
Post by S J Birkill on 21.05.09 at 21:15

on 05/21/09 at 19:40:30, phil_smith wrote :
Keith,
        Langworth college as I recall! I was much happier chatting to Pete than listening to Al Stewart, who at the time spent several hours telling us all he knew about Nostradamus, before singing a long song giving exactly the same information! Would hazard a guess at '72/'73.
But here is the theme for your forthcoming book, Pete. Reminiscence therapy for all those aged people who liked you then and continue to do so! Takes a burden off the state!

June 16th, 1973

http://www.peteatkin.com/pagiglst.htm
http://www-student.cs.york.ac.uk/uni_history/bands.html ( - thanks for the link, Kipper)

Title: Re: Lakeside
Post by Keith Busby on 21.05.09 at 22:43
Yep, that was it. I remember Pete telling me that as a result of that gig Al Stewart told his agent never to book him again on the same bill as Pete, who eclipsed the wee Scot.



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