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Ian Chippett
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Fadeots
« : 14.03.09 at 18:00 »
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Pete wrote:
 
<<It was also part of an idea of mine at the time to try to give a bit of added value to fade-outs. An Array Of Passionate Lovers was another one (I always regretted the fact that we didn't fade that one out completely before the saxes start to repeat it).  The most perceptive among you will have spotted that I've never used fade-outs very often. So ften, it seems to me, they're disappointing or annoying.   My default position has always been to end a song 'properly' unless there's some musical or lyrical or emotional reason not to.  Even so, I'm not sure I'd be able to justify convincingly every single one.  What does anybody else think? (Maybe a case for a new thread.)
 
A great idea! Why do some songs seem to need fadeouts while others don't? On BoTBS I don't think any of the songs fade out while on DTMA at least two do ("Where Have They All Gone?" and "DTMA" itself)? In a nutshell, why do some songs come to an end and others don't? After all, when you have to perform the thing on stage, you can't just fade out unless you're Joseph Haydn. In the case of DTMA (the song) there's no other solution (according to me). But why?
 
Ian C
 
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Ian Chippett
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Re: Fadeots
« Reply #1: 14.03.09 at 18:23 »
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When I say "fadeots" I mean of course "fadeouts."
 
Ian C
 
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Andrew_Curry
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Re: Fadeots
« Reply #2: 18.03.09 at 22:56 »
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Well, to stop Ian having a discussion with himself I thought I might join in this one, because I've wondered about it before.
 
Time was when I thought that fadeouts were a pretty slack way of finishing a song - after all, groups managed to end songs on stage, so why not in the studio? As I got more sophisticated, of course, I realised that the studio is different from the stage, and obviously you can do things differently there.  
 
But - there's a bit of me that still thinks it's quite often quite slack. I can see that in some songs, it's inherent in the idea or even in the construction of the song, a way of leaving a lyric open-ended, perhaps (the musical equivalent of dots at the end of a sentence?), or in the pattern of the music (impossible to imagine Hey Jude not fading out after that huge relentless repetition that defines it, although I say this from memory with a moment of dread that perhaps it doesn't and someone will shortly point out my error).
 
But it still seems to me often to be used where it does neither of these things.  
 
All that said, the jazz band closing 'jam' as they reach the end of the piece doesn't seem any better, and may just be a device to finish off a song when you have less studio time and have to get by on fewer takes.
 
But there is a curiosity here, in that it's hard to think of another form that has this luxury (film, maybe, one in a blue moon? The ending of Butch Cassidy literally fades out, but is it a fade-out?) But most novels, poems, plays, even other musical forms, tend to come to an end. What is it that makes rock music - because it is mostly rock - different from all of these ?
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Ian Chippett
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Re: Fadeots
« Reply #3: 19.03.09 at 10:42 »
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Andrew wrote:
 
<<What is it that makes rock music - because it is mostly rock - different from all of these?>> ?    
 
Generally, rock or more particularly pop artists are anxious to make a great record rather than just write a good song. Something like I Get Around is a complete experience: just singing the song with a guitar would be pointless. In this case the fadeout is essential as in so many of the Beach Boys songs. When they play live, although they reproduce admirably the harmonies (most of the time) it's always a bit of a disappointment when the song suddenly stops. In fact, I can't think of any of their records that doesn't fade out.
 
With Pete's stuff, a lot depends on the structure of the song though I'd be hard-pressed to explain why it is that DTMA has no other choice but to fadeout (like Prince of Acquitaine and Where have they all gone?) whereas TITN has to stop. But then again, Sunlight Gate could fade out but doesn't or doesn't really.
 
I once played in a band whose songs were rather nice but never seemed to come to an end. The writers said they had a problem finishing songs but had no idea why this was.
 
I've never seen play DTMA live so I wonder how he managed to bring it to a close onstage.
 
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Simon Reap
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Re: Fadeots
« Reply #4: 19.03.09 at 12:00 »
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on 19.03.09 at 10:42, Ian Chippett wrote:
I've never seen play DTMA live so I wonder how he managed to bring it to a close onstage.

 
If it's just Pete + guitar you wouldn't have the sax solo at the end, so just after the last lines "And died together in the sun.  They were driving through mythical America",  the voice holds on to the last "a" of America and fades, while the guitar plays a bar of the current tune and ends on a loud chord which itself fades away.
 
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Anne H
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Re: Fadeots
« Reply #5: 19.03.09 at 23:04 »
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I love the fadeout at the end of "Rain-Wheels".  You can practically see that car disappearing into the distance en route to the Vale of Health!
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Ian Chippett
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Re: Fadeots
« Reply #6: 20.03.09 at 09:24 »
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Anne wrote:
 
<<I love the fadeout at the end of "Rain-Wheels".  You can practically see that car disappearing into the distance en route to the Vale of Health! >>
 
I'd forgotten this one. In fact, this is one of those songs which couldn't really exist without the fadeout at the end. The "Her firestones go trailing spray" bit is unique in all of Pete and Clive's output, come to that.
 
Ian C
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