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Ian Chippett
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No Dice
« : 10.11.05 at 19:44 »
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Just had a look at the chord transcription on Smash Flops and I'm pretty sure the chord marked Cma7 should in fact be C7. Shouldn't the A9 be A11? I hesitate to ask this as the transcription comes from the original tablets but it doesn't sound quite right when I play this version. It wouldn't sound right if I played any other version but that's my fault.  Sad
 
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Keith Busby
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Re: No Dice
« Reply #1: 10.11.05 at 23:02 »
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Yep. C7 and A11/A7sus4).
 
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Re: No Dice
« Reply #2: 11.11.05 at 00:31 »
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No, definitely Cmaj7! Listen to the piano part...
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Pete Atkin
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Re: No Dice
« Reply #3: 11.11.05 at 08:58 »
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OK:  Cmaj7 *is* right;  C7 changes the musical grammar and is not what I meant.    
 
And A11 sounds OK -- you couldn't say it's positively 'wrong' in the same way -- but the harmony at that point 'hangs' off the B, which gives a particular emphasis to the 9th of the chord which is weakened a bit IMO by adding in the D/11th.
 
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Ian Chippett
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Re: No Dice
« Reply #4: 11.11.05 at 21:09 »
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Pete wrote:
 
<<OK:  Cmaj7 *is* right;  C7 changes the musical grammar and is not what I meant.    
 
And A11 sounds OK -- you couldn't say it's positively 'wrong' in the same way -- but the harmony at that point 'hangs' off the B, which gives a particular emphasis to the 9th of the chord which is weakened a bit IMO by adding in the D/11th. >>
 
Bon, OK, I'll give it another try. Can't really argue with the Master unless we have a problem with terminology (this came up years back concerning Ninths: is C9 the same as C7/9?. Gerry?) For me, C7 is CEGBb which would seem to fit much better in a song in (more or less) D minor than Cma7 which is (for me) CEGBnatural. The B natural seems  wrong to my (admittedly protruding) ears.
 
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Re: No Dice
« Reply #5: 12.11.05 at 10:10 »
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You're right about 9th chords, Ian:  it includes the minor 7th (i.e. B flat in a C9) plus the 9th (D natural).  Variations such as major 7th or flatted ninth would always be specified.
 
But as for D minor somehow requiring C7 as opposed to Cmaj7, well, that may be true in some contexts but certainly not all.   No Dice -- the melody, at any rate -- is kind of modal (i.e. based on a scale, like most blues and folk tunes);   the mode sets up certain expectations in the ear, and playing around with those expectations needs to be done with care.  There's nothing complex or technical about this:  modes are almost instinctive, much more so than chromatic harmonies.   Anyway, C7 in No Dice would break down the mode in a way that doesn't happen anywhere else in the song.
 
And while I'm here, I just spotted that of course there are two A9s in the trnscription.  I was talking about the first one in my previous posting.  The second one (the one that leads into the "Yesterday was oh so long ago" bit) should indeed really be A11 (i.e. A triad plus G natural, B natural, and D natural), where the melody is on the D.  (A11 being not quite the same grammatically as A7sus4, even though they both include a D, as A7sus4 doesn't include the B.   On guitar, they're effectively the same (3rd fret on 2nd string, 2nd fret on fourth), but that's mainly because of the comparatively limited voicing capabilities of the instrument.)
 
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Ian Chippett
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Re: No Dice
« Reply #6: 12.11.05 at 12:41 »
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Petewrote:
 
<<But as for D minor somehow requiring C7 as opposed to Cmaj7, well, that may be true in some contexts but certainly not all. >>
 
My mistake here was to think that this was one of those contexts: as the first three chords are Dm - C- Bbma7, I was prepared for another C or C7 (which is equally feasible, I feeble contend) but having given it another try, I gracefully incline before the Revealed Truth. Another case of Pete not quite doing what everyone else would have done? One thinks of the opening chord change of I Feel Like Midnight (Cma9 - F#6) which is illegal in many countries.
 
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Re: No Dice
« Reply #7: 12.11.05 at 13:43 »
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For what it's worth: the Aeolian mode has a minor third, a minor sixth and a minor seventh, sounding a lot like a minor scale. The Dorian mode (otherwise the same) gets its distinctive sound from the major sixth - so the B natural here gives a Dorian effect.  
 
As for me, I find it hard to resist slipping a quick G between the Bbmaj7 and Cmaj7, but I guess it ruins the ascending bass line...
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Re: No Dice
« Reply #8: 12.11.05 at 23:56 »
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on 12.11.05 at 10:10, Pete Atkin wrote:
You're right about 9th chords, Ian:  it includes the minor 7th (i.e. B flat in a C9) plus the 9th (D natural).  Variations such as major 7th or flatted ninth would always be specified.

 
Oo-er.  'Fraid I have to at least partially disagree.  I think in popular/jazz idiom, Pete is right - the minor (dominant) 7th is implied in a 9th chord.  However, this presents a certiain difficulty, ie when you want to indicate a 'pure' 9th chord, such as C E G D.  Such a chord is common, for instance in the first line of the verses of The Carpenters Close To You, or the first chord of John Barry's theme from Midnight Cowboy.  I think contetx really is the key to this one.
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Re: No Dice
« Reply #9: 13.11.05 at 11:09 »
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Oo-er, this is in danger of getting to be (if it isn't already) the kind of discussion that would have had the old-style e-mail MVs rushing to the metaphorical unsubscribe button (so how good that we're in new-style mode).  We may, as I say, already be in the realm of the heads of pins and angels, but you could equally say that a ninth without anything stated or implied between it and the fifth below is actually a second and not a ninth at all.  Steely Dan (aha!) use such chords a lot, and have even pointed out their use in at least one of their music books, making it clear that no other note additional to the triad is required or appropriate.  The Goodbye Look from Mr Fagen's first solo outing is a good example of its use.  (I trust that everyone -- everyone who's interested, that is --  has picked up on the imminence of a third solo Fagen CD)
 
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Ian Chippett
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Re: No Dice
« Reply #10: 13.11.05 at 16:41 »
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Gerry wrote:
 
<<However, this presents a certiain difficulty, ie when you want to indicate a 'pure' 9th chord, such as C E G D.  Such a chord is common, for instance in the first line of the verses of The Carpenters Close To You, or the first chord of John Barry's theme from Midnight Cowboy. >>
 
I used to go along with Gerry on this one but now I have discovered the difference between C9 (C-E-G-Bb-D) and C (add9) (C-E-G-D-E.) There's a website somewhere with all these chords on.  
 
Going off-topic slightly, I found a chord recently but don't know what it's called F#-B-C-G over an E bass. Any ideas? You can't really play it all at once but it's a pretty arpeggio sort of chord.
 
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Re: No Dice
« Reply #11: 13.11.05 at 18:51 »
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on 13.11.05 at 11:09, Pete Atkin wrote:
We may, as I say, already be in the realm of the heads of pins and angels, but you could equally say that a ninth without anything stated or  
implied between it and the fifth below is actually a second and not a ninth at all.  

 
Well, yeah but no but yeah but....if the 9th is voiced at the top of the chord, the interval is indeed a 9th from the root, although it is equally a compound major second.  And I believe that convention dictates that a chord is not qualified by 2.
 
on 13.11.05 at 11:09, Pete Atkin wrote:
Steely Dan (aha!) use such chords a lot, and have even pointed out their use in at least one of their music books, making it clear that no other note additional to the triad is required or appropriate.  The Goodbye Look from Mr Fagen's first solo outing is a good example of its use.  (I trust that everyone -- everyone who's interested, that is --  has picked up on the imminence of a third solo Fagen CD)

 
How did they indicate the pure 9th?  I'd be interested to know. Not previously heard the aforementioned song, but just had a quick listen and a good number it is too, resplendent in its 9ths.  
 
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Re: No Dice
« Reply #12: 13.11.05 at 19:12 »
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on 13.11.05 at 16:41, Ian Chippett wrote:
Gerry wrote:
 
<<However, this presents a certiain difficulty, ie when you want to indicate a 'pure' 9th chord, such as C E G D.  Such a chord is common, for instance in the first line of the verses of The Carpenters Close To You, or the first chord of John Barry's theme from Midnight Cowboy. >>
 
I used to go along with Gerry on this one but now I have discovered the difference between C9 (C-E-G-Bb-D) and C (add9) (C-E-G-D-E.) There's a website somewhere with all these chords on.

 
Well, I guess that's as good a workaround as any!
 
on 13.11.05 at 16:41, Ian Chippett wrote:
Going off-topic slightly, I found a chord recently but don't know what it's called F#-B-C-G over an E bass. Any ideas? You can't really play it all at once but it's a pretty arpeggio sort of chord.

 
It's hard to define a chord out of context, but since E is in the bass, I'd label it (in your preferred parlance  Wink Em6add9.  
 
Gerry
 
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Re: No Dice
« Reply #13: 14.11.05 at 10:09 »
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Gerry wrote:
 
<<It's hard to define a chord out of context, but since E is in the bass, I'd label it (in your preferred parlance   Em6add9.>>
 
Yes except it's a C natural! Is that Em(b6)add9? or Em (+5)add9?
 
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Re: No Dice
« Reply #14: 14.11.05 at 10:36 »
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on 14.11.05 at 10:09, Ian Chippett wrote:
Gerry wrote:
 
<<It's hard to define a chord out of context, but since E is in the bass, I'd label it (in your preferred parlance   Em6add9.>>
 
Yes except it's a C natural! Is that Em(b6)add9? or Em (+5)add9?
 
Ian C
 

 
Oops, yes, the former.  Not the latter because you are using the B (the 5th) in its own right.  The C natural though is the natural (aeolian) 6th.
 
Gerry
 
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Re: No Dice
« Reply #15: 15.11.05 at 09:45 »
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Gerry wrote:
 
"Well, yeah but no but yeah but....if the 9th is voiced at the top of the chord, the interval is indeed a 9th from the root, although it is equally a compound major second.  And I believe that convention dictates that a chord is not qualified by 2.  
 How did they (Steely Dan) indicate the pure 9th?  I'd be interested to know. Not previously heard the aforementioned song, but just had a quick listen and a good number it is too, resplendent in its 9ths."
 
I first saw it spelled out in an introduction to the Royal Scam/Aja songbook.  They (Becker and Fagen) refer to it as a mu chord (using the Greek letter as the symbol).  They describe it as substituting the second note of the scale for the tonic (but with the tonic still in the root).  They also say that whatever inversion you use there should always be present a whole-tone discord between the second and the third notes of the scale (I guess that's really what distinguishes it from a ninth).  
 
But let's never forget that the guitar chord description system is (just like western musical notation itself) an attempt at a way of describing something, not a prescriptive set of rules.   There are many, many musical circumstances that neither of them is capable of dealing with or describing accurately, particularly (in the case of chords) when it comes down to individual voicings, even on guitar but espevcially on keyboards where a far bigger range of voicings are available.  In other words, you can play two differently spaced combinations of notes which have fundamentally different sounds and effects, but which would have to be described with the same chord symbol.   Chord symbols and notation are simply a clue.   If it weren't so, after all, every single 'accurate' performance of any piece of classical music would sound exactly the same -- and they don't.
 
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Re: No Dice
« Reply #16: 16.11.05 at 22:55 »
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on 12.11.05 at 10:10, Pete Atkin wrote:
I just spotted that of course there are two A9s in the trnscription.  I was talking about the first one in my previous posting.  The second one (the one that leads into the "Yesterday was oh so long ago" bit) should indeed really be A11 (i.e. A triad plus G natural, B natural, and D natural), where the melody is on the D.

I've now applied this tweak to the No Dice chord transcription page.
 
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